Sickening Bible Stories

Originally posted by KellyJay
[b]Are you simply stating that as an irrefutable definition?

God created the universe without death for mankind, death is a result
of sin. God setup the universe to behave with the laws of physics we
recognize today, we do not call chemical reactions good or bad, they
are simply the way they are. God according to scripture sets the time
for each ...[text shortened]... Christ as God seeks out each
person now without reguard to race, sex, age, and so on.
Kelly
[/b]

so what you're saying is before Jesus, god was evil and after Jesus he became good?

Originally posted by frogstomp
no1 marauder has already posted the quote.
as Kelly Jay has said here.."we aren't talking about just some guy.."

God is supposed to know what's gonna happen. If he told them to do something, he knew the ramifications of it,,,thats where the assent is"

well-can you quote it again cause either i didn't see it or i missinterpreted it (or at least direct me to the page+the post).

so you're saying that he knew they were not going to obey his command? okay...so what else is he gonna do about it? anyway - those people weren't exaclty a major problem in israels future, were they? from my understanding, they aren't mentioned again.

Originally posted by genius
well-can you quote it again cause either i didn't see it or i missinterpreted it (or at least direct me to the page+the post).

so you're saying that he knew they were not going to obey his command? okay...so what else is he gonna do about it? anyway - those people weren't exaclty a major problem in israels future, were they? from my understanding, they aren't mentioned again.

for clarity sake
this is what I said:

"God is supposed to know what's gonna happen. If he told them to do something, he knew the ramifications of it,,,thats where the assent is"

for greater clarity sake : He knew in advance exactly what was going to happen.

I dont have the time to wade throught all the wind baggage thats been posted in this thread. sorry

Originally posted by frogstomp
for clarity sake
this is what I said:

"God is supposed to know what's gonna happen. If he told them to do something, he knew the ramifications of it,,,thats where the assent is"

for greater clarity sake : He knew in advance exactly what was going to happen.

I dont have the time to wade throught all the wind baggage thats been posted in this thread. sorry

but what is your point with this? your focusing on the bad things - but good things have actually happened...and we do not know why he picked those people, we can but presume it was the best choice...

Originally posted by genius
well-can you quote it again cause either i didn't see it or i missinterpreted it (or at least direct me to the page+the post).

so you're saying that he knew they were not going to obey his command? okay...so what else is he gonna do abo ...[text shortened]... e, were they? from my understanding, they aren't mentioned again.

It's pretty obvious you didn't even read the passage. After the slaughtering part, here's Numbers 31: 25-35

25Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,

26"You and Eleazar the priest and the heads of the fathers' households of the congregation take a count of the booty that was captured, both of man and of animal;


27and (Q)divide the booty between the warriors who went out to battle and all the congregation.


28"(R)Levy a tax for the LORD from the men of war who went out to battle, one in five hundred of the persons and of the cattle and of the donkeys and of the sheep;


29take it from their half and give it to Eleazar the priest, as an offering to the LORD.


30"From the sons of Israel's half, you shall take one drawn out of every fifty of the persons, of the cattle, of the donkeys and of the sheep, from all the animals, and give them to the Levites who (S)keep charge of the tabernacle of the LORD."


31Moses and Eleazar the priest did just as the LORD had commanded Moses.


32Now the booty that remained from the spoil which the men of war had plundered was 675,000 sheep,


33and 72,000 cattle,


34and 61,000 donkeys,


35and of human beings, of the women who had not known man intimately, all the persons were 32,000.


The LORD spoke to Moses and ordered the divvying up of the booty, including the Midianite girls who were spoils of war. He most certainly did not order them killed and Moses followed exactly his commands (the rest of the chapter has tedious details of how the booty was divided up; read it). Nowhere is the word "marry"; they were given to be done with as these men willed i.e. raped.

Anything else about this passage that is unclear?

Originally posted by KellyJay
[b]Are you simply stating that as an irrefutable definition?

God created the universe without death for mankind, death is a result
of sin. God setup the universe to behave with the laws of physics we
recognize today, we do not call chemical reactions good or bad, they
are simply the way they are. God according to scripture sets the time
for each ...[text shortened]... Christ as God seeks out each
person now without reguard to race, sex, age, and so on.
Kelly
[/b]

That's pretty much an answer of yes to my first question. I understand your faith and I appreciate that you do not shove it down people's throats like the Darfiuses of the world. You simply say God as the creator doesn't have to follow any rules because He made the game. I can't argue with that premise if I accept the existence of God and my position is simply that I don't have enough information to say wheteher he does or does not exist. Anything further between us would basically be a "Is a God; Ain't (?) a God" type of argument that to me leads nowhere.

I will simply say that the God of the Old Testament committed, condoned or ordered acts to be committed that are monstrous by any standard human morality. I assume you would not argue that, but would simply say he is above any human morality. I understand your position, don't argee but because your position is based on your very definition of God and central to your faith, I don't think we can have a useful debate about it.

Originally posted by frogstomp
so what you're saying is before Jesus, god was evil and after Jesus he became good?

The change of covenant has God reaching to each
man, sin has been dealt with through Christ as God seeks out each
person now without reguard to race, sex, age, and so on.

No, I never called God evil, this is what I said. Could you please
tell me where you see me saying that before Jesus God was evil
and after Jesus God became good?
Kelly

Originally posted by genius
but what is your point with this? your focusing on the bad things - but good things have actually happened...and we do not know why he picked those people, we can but presume it was the best choice...

so you think like this:
. "When you die, all that we did and that we will do to you, will be wiped out and will be without effect on you or on anybody, and could as well never have happen- ed. As soon as you die, you will become nothing again, without identity, without feelings."
"God wanted this for you."
"God only wants good things

theres more if you're still interested

Originally posted by Darfius
You clearly have no idea WHY God might order what He did.

You do realize that He has infinite wisdom, yes? Clearly you couldn't begin to fathom His reasoning.

I can think of a host of reasons why it would be necessary.

1. Those people would have done even worse to the Jews if given the opportunity.

2. God's priority in the OT is to PROTECT TH ...[text shortened]... in prison and feed and clothe them? So they could revolt and kill Jewish women and children?

5 pages accumulated in a day! So I have only now seen this response.

Darfius' quotes are in italics.

You clearly have no idea WHY God might order what He did.
You do realize that He has infinite wisdom, yes? Clearly you couldn't begin to fathom His reasoning.

And you do? If there was really a being so powerful, he could easily deceive you. Typical christian hubris.

1. Those people would have done even worse to the Jews if given the opportunity. 2. God's priority in the OT is to PROTECT THE PEOPLE THE MESSIAH WOULD COME FROM. I can't stress that enough. If the Jews had been annihilated, you wouldn't have a Savior to deny and ridicule.

God killed thousands of Israelis because of a census that king David took. He killed many Israelis because of the golden calf. The bible is full of stories where God suddenly decided to off scores of Israelites. If I were a Jew, I'd have to say God was my worst enemy.

3. It's my belief that fallen angels may have had children with earth women. It's mentioned in Genesis and I believe Goliath is the most famous example of that evil union. As such, I believe both the Flood and seemingly cruel actions in the OT can best be explained by God ridding the world of pure evil.

Allegedly God regretted making man and wiped them out. Still, that is God's fault, for if he could see the future, and still made mankind, he'd only have himself to blame.

Sounds fantastical, but you haven't seen what I've seen.

If I did, I'd be hallucinating.

Originally posted by no1marauder
That's pretty much an answer of yes to my first question. I understand your faith and I appreciate that you do not shove it down people's throats like the Darfiuses of the world. You simply say God as the creator doesn't have ...[text shortened]... o your faith, I don't think we can have a useful debate about it.

The core of all of these debates so far is,” What right does God have
to do what he did isn't it?" If God did create everything, if God does
appoint for each person a time to die, what does it matter how one
dies? Scripture needs to be looked at in light of all other scripture,
and knowing that God sets life times, I don't see how God can be
called a murderer. In light of scripture we are looking at the one who
said this:

Genesis 6:3
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever,
for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."

So the life time of man is set, again we are not talking about some
King sending people off to do battle which basically is what I seem
to see every time I see people upset when God acts. If you want
to call certain passages of scripture bad, you must do it in light of all
of the scriptures so suggesting you cannot talk to me because it would
be a "Is a God: Ain't{?} a God" isn't true. If you are going to claim
that God is some how wrong we need to look at all of it. Can you really
call God a murderer in light of He is the one who forms us in our
mother's wombs and sets the days of lives?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You should start following conversations completely or not at all.
Kelly

you use semantic dodges like answering:

did god authorize mass murders of did he not? "with god doesnt commit murder."

either he did or didnt?
I realize you don't like the idea the bible says he did, and you are wedded to the bible as the word of god.
Well, maybe you should get a divorce,,, oh , wait,, Jesus said "Moses gave you that because of the hardness of your hearts'
Maybe Jesus knew something about the OT you guys dont ..like Man wrote it?
and that's why it says god done what he did.

Originally posted by KellyJay
The core of all of these debates so far is,” What right does God have
to do what he did isn't it?" If God did create everything, if God does
appoint for each person a time to die, what does it matter how one
dies? Scripture needs to be looked at in light of all other scripture,
and knowing that God sets life times, I don't see how God can be
called ...[text shortened]... He is the one who forms us in our
mother's wombs and sets the days of lives?
Kelly

you can keep that god ,,its a lunatic..I do hope you get to spend eternity sucking up to him. maybe he wont torture you.

Originally posted by KellyJay
The core of all of these debates so far is,” What right does God have
to do what he did isn't it?" If God did create everything, if God does
appoint for each person a time to die, what does it matter how one
dies? Scripture needs to be looked at in light of all other scripture,
and knowing that God sets life times, I don't see how God can be
called ...[text shortened]... He is the one who forms us in our
mother's wombs and sets the days of lives?
Kelly

No, KellyJay the core of this debate is that a God who would condone or commit the monstrous acts set forth in the Old Testament almost certainly doesn't exist. You believe he does and think we're "judging" him, but we're not: we're simply saying that as between a theory that the ancient Jews created this monster God to justify their own cruelty and a theory that he exists and orders monstrous things, we believe the former is more rational. There's too many "ifs" in your post to convince me and I don't look upon Bible scripture with any more (or less) reverence than the Book of Gilgamash or any other ancient semi-historical work. You're welcome to your beliefs, but if you can truly tell me you can read Numbers 31 and have no feelings of horror and disgust for the horrorific treatment meted out to the Midianites (esp. the innocent boys and girls) then I say you have a serious compassion problem.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Can you really
call God a murderer in light of He is the one who forms us in our
mother's wombs and sets the days of lives?
Kelly

Yeah! By the way, I got mad at my son and killed him yesterday. I figured since I brought 'im into the world, I might as well take 'im out.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Yeah! By the way, I got mad at my son and killed him yesterday. I figured since I brought 'im into the world, I might as well take 'im out.

Jeez ,,I thought you had somebody else kill him so you could forgive your computer for messing up the program you took 6 days to write.
Silly me!