Not many new posts here, so here is something new to think about.
When Jesus walked the earth, the governing authorities didn't like him at all. He prophesied on more than one occasion that he would rise from the dead in 3 days. Either the Romans or the Jews could have waited a week or 2 after Jesus was crucified, taken his body, thrown it in a cart and hauled it around the streets of Jerusalem and proclaimed Jesus to be a liar. So - why didn't they?
**Please - don't try to sell me on the idea that a bunch of unarmed, ragtag disciples overpowered the heavily armed Roman guards at Jesus' tomb and stole his body!
14 Nov 23
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@fmf saidThe Jews were expecting some messiah or other, but not necessarily Jesus. The NT gospels referring to the OT 'foretelling' Jesus, were written to give the story precisely that 'spin', by re-interpreting the OT as one long omen pointing to Jesus specifically as the prophesied messiah.
The story that he rose from the dead was created decades after the Romans executed him.
14 Nov 23
@moonbus saidOne of the so-it-must-be-true "clinchers" being the contorted incorporation of Bethlehem into the NT
The Jews were expecting some messiah or other, but not necessarily Jesus. The NT gospels referring to the OT 'foretelling' Jesus, were written to give the story precisely that 'spin', by re-interpreting the OT as one long omen pointing to Jesus specifically as the prophesied messiah.
@mchill saidWas it a Roman guard, the Biblical evidence points to it being a Jewish one.
**Please - don't try to sell me on the idea that a bunch of unarmed, ragtag disciples overpowered the heavily armed Roman guards at Jesus' tomb and stole his body!
Matthew 27: 62-65
62 The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate. 63 “Sir,” they said, “we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise again.’ 64 So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first.”
65 “Take a guard,” Pilate answered. “Go, make the tomb as secure as you know how.”
Pilate didn’t take the initiative with his own guard, he told the Jewish leaders to do it themselves.
Confirmation…
Matthew 28:11-15
While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12 When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13 telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14 If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” 15 So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.
1) The accounts of the empty tomb is muddled and contradictory even to the point of who of the women exactly found the empty tomb.
2) the instruction by Pilate to “take a guard and make it as secure as you can” is ambiguous. In reply he would have said “I’ll will send a guard”… Jewish leaders didn’t boss Roman guards around.
3) Roman guards wouldn’t have slept on duty and they certainly would not have reported to Jewish leaders after the event.
4) The idea that Roman guards took money from Jews to lie to the Governor just doesn’t seem credible. If these men had been found out they would have suffered a horrible death.
And finally the last sentence “and this is the story which has been widely circulated to this very day” sounds like someone writing decades later, recounting folklore and reiterating what they themselves have been told.
The evidence that Jesus rose from the dead is not found in the Bible and certainly not in this account. The written accounts (clearly written a long time after the events) detail that only a handful of people saw the empty tomb and only a slightly smaller group saw him risen.
14 Nov 23
@mchill saidWhat are you talking about?
Not many new posts here, so here is something new to think about.
When Jesus walked the earth, the governing authorities didn't like him at all. He prophesied on more than one occasion that he would rise from the dead in 3 days. Either the Romans or the Jews could have waited a week or 2 after Jesus was crucified, taken his body, thrown it in a cart and hauled it around the ...[text shortened]... rmed, ragtag disciples overpowered the heavily armed Roman guards at Jesus' tomb and stole his body!
His body was gone 3 days after the Crucifixion.
16 Nov 23
@suzianne saidYes - That's my point. Neither the Jews or the Romans could kill Christianity by dragging the Body of Jesus out of the tomb and showing it to everyone, because the body was gone.
What are you talking about?
His body was gone 3 days after the Crucifixion.
16 Nov 23
@mchill saidAn empty tomb proves nothing. Nothing at all. Not that anyone was ever in it, much less that whoever might have been in it left in an unorthodox manner.
Yes - That's my point. Neither the Jews or the Romans could kill Christianity by dragging the Body of Jesus out of the tomb and showing it to everyone, because the body was gone.
I have a reading suggestion for you: “The Jesus Family Tomb.”
https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Family-Tomb-Evidence-Discovery/dp/0061205346/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=1X3AI9RMNJO5&keywords=the+jesus+family+tomb&qid=1700168486&sprefix=the+jesus+family+tomb%2Caps%2C168&sr=8-1
Get back to us after you have read and thoroughly digested it. Yes, I know, Yeshua was a common name in the Levant in the first century AD. The author deals with that objection.
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16 Nov 23
@mchill saidTo be honest sir, it's not a very good point.
Yes - That's my point. Neither the Jews or the Romans could kill Christianity by dragging the Body of Jesus out of the tomb and showing it to everyone, because the body was gone.
16 Nov 23
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I don't read many comic books, but there is a great term - "retcon" - that applies to this topic.
Per Wikipedia:
"Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short, is a literary device in which facts in the world of a fictional work which have been established through the narrative itself are adjusted, ignored, supplemented, or contradicted by a subsequently published work which recontextualizes or breaks continuity with the former."
This technique works outside of fiction, too - or better yet, with stories that are loosely based on historical events and characters.
This is what happened as the NT was formulated. The historical tale of Jesus, the apocalyptic preacher was retconned into Jesus, the Messiah, Savior, and Son of God.
Edit: Messiah, of course, being foretold by the OT, thus the "continuity".
@mchill saidChristianity was created by writers decades after Jesus's death.
Neither the Jews or the Romans could kill Christianity by dragging the Body of Jesus out of the tomb and showing it to everyone, because the body was gone.
Thereafter, Christianity didn't get "killed" ~ and has prospered ~ because it had a popular easily understood Golden Rule-based message and a growing number of adherents who had convinced themselves they could "think" their way to everlasting life ~ on the strength of belief alone ~ without "having to do" anything.
Jesus was a very marginal figure in his lifetime, indeed we don't really know if he was a 'figure' at all, seeing as no one wrote a single word about him in his lifetime or indeed for about 40 years after he died.
Who knows, maybe the Romans DID drag his body out of the tomb and showed it to everyone: there is no convincing evidence that they did or didn't. Why would they have bothered?