14 Jan 10
Originally posted by galveston75I think thats how the JW organisation indoctrinates the weakminded people.. much like yourself. Dont try that with me. Im not interested in adopting your false doctrines. The doctrine of Christ is fine and I believe in what Christ said.
The whole point of this discussion Raj is to establish wether or not that any concsience part of a human continues on after death with you wether you call it a soul or body or spirit or ghost or whatever. All scriptures in the Bible say no it doesn't happen. All are dead without thought in the grave until the time comes for him to be resurrected to eithe ...[text shortened]... ich I know, it's because you can't.
Here it is again..... I'm waiting for a responce!!!!
14 Jan 10
Originally posted by galveston75Have you considered Luke 16:19-31 yet?
The whole point of this discussion Raj is to establish wether or not that any concsience part of a human continues on after death with you wether you call it a soul or body or spirit or ghost or whatever. All scriptures in the Bible say no it doesn't happen. All are dead without thought in the grave until the time comes for him to be resurrected to eithe ...[text shortened]... ich I know, it's because you can't.
Here it is again..... I'm waiting for a responce!!!!
"There was a rich man who dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 But at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus whose body was covered with sores, 21 who longed to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. In addition, the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 “Now the poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And in hell, as he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far off with Lazarus at his side. 24 So he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this fire.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things and Lazarus likewise bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in anguish. 26 Besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us, so that those who want to cross over from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us.’ 27 So the rich man said, ‘Then I beg you, father – send Lazarus to my father’s house 28 (for I have five brothers) to warn them so that they don’t come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; they must respond to them.’ 30 Then the rich man said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 He replied to him, ‘If they do not respond to Moses and the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Were Lazarus and the rich man conscious after death?
14 Jan 10
Originally posted by epiphinehasThis is a parable. It never really happened.
Have you considered Luke 16:19-31 yet?
"There was a rich man who dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 But at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus whose body was covered with sores, 21 who longed to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. In addition, the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 “Now the poor ma ...[text shortened]... someone rises from the dead.’”
Were Lazarus and the rich man conscious after death?
14 Jan 10
Originally posted by Rajk999Oh my..... Yes I know what a parable is. So now your saying you base your belief on a parable and with no proof that your conscience lives after death and refuse to acknowledge all the other scriptures that say you have no consciensness after death? Sounds like a solid belief to me!!!
A parable is a story that is rooted in reality but which has a deeper spiritual meaning. So even though it never really happened it CAN HAPPEN. Do you understand what a parable is?
14 Jan 10
Originally posted by galveston75Read Matt 10:28 again. Christ says the soul lives on after the body dies.
Oh my..... Yes I know what a parable is. So now your saying you base your belief on a parable and with no proof that your conscience lives after death and refuse to acknowledge all the other scriptures that say you have no consciensness after death? Sounds like a solid belief to me!!!
You are a footstool of the JW organisation. Not sure you believe in Christ.
14 Jan 10
Originally posted by galveston75Not one scripture in the Bible says the soul lives on after death.
I've noticed some discussions lately about the soul and what it is. According to the Bible, not mythes or religious beliefs, it is the fleshly body that humans and all living creatures have. It is something we start to grow at conception and that begins to perish at death.
Gen 1: 20 mentions the ocean and flying creatures as souls.
Gen 1: 24 speaks o ...[text shortened]...
Acts 3:23 confirms this.
Not one scripture in the Bible says the soul lives on after death.
"And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the life’s breath returns to God who gave it" (Eccl. 12:7).
"All go unto one place; for all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward? (Ecclesiastes 3:20-21).
You forget that the Bible teaches that man possesses a spirit as well as a body.
14 Jan 10
Originally posted by galveston75It is a solid belief, sir.
Oh my..... Yes I know what a parable is. So now your saying you base your belief on a parable and with no proof that your conscience lives after death and refuse to acknowledge all the other scriptures that say you have no consciensness after death? Sounds like a solid belief to me!!!
Consider the thief on the cross. He turned to Christ and said, “Jesus, Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom” (Luke 23:42). If consciousness truly ceases after death, then Jesus could not have promised the thief that before the day was done that he would still be alive and with Him in Paradise. Right? And yet, that's exactly what Christ promises: “Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.” No sleep of death, no time of waiting, no unconsciousness of the soul.
Was Christ offering a false promise?
14 Jan 10
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999Well if you think JW's don't believe in Christ then you really don't know anything about us.
Read Matt 10:28 again. Christ says the soul lives on after the body dies.
You are a footstool of the JW organisation. Not sure you believe in Christ.
Matt 10:28 as I said earlier is speaking of God being able to kill you permently which no man can...
14 Jan 10
Originally posted by epiphinehasThanks as both these scriptures proves that your body or soul dies at death. Where does it say that something else lives on? Where does it say that your conscieness lives on? Where does it say your thoughts live on?
[b]Not one scripture in the Bible says the soul lives on after death.
"And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the life’s breath returns to God who gave it" (Eccl. 12:7).
"All go unto one place; for all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward? (Ecclesiastes 3:20-21).
You forget that the Bible teaches that man possesses a spirit as well as a body.[/b]
It says your spirit lives on. According to the Bible your spirit is just the life force that God gives to all life.
If any of you would take the time to do a little biblical research online you will find that Soul and Body mean the same thing in any research you'll find of the original languages of the Bible.
Give it a shot.......
14 Jan 10
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75In Genesis 2:7, you have:
Thanks as both these scriptures proves that your body or soul dies at death. Where does it say that something else lives on? Where does it say that your conscieness lives on? Where does it say your thoughts live on?
It says your spirit lives on. According to the Bible your spirit is just the life force that God gives to all life.
If any of you would ...[text shortened]... ing in any research you'll find of the original languages of the Bible.
Give it a shot.......
“…and he breathed (v’yephach) into his nostrils the breath of life (nepheshmat chayim) and he became the human/earthling (ha’adam) into being (l’nephesh) living (chayah).”
So here, the “soul-word” is nephesh. This is, in a sense, the “zoological soul”, or the breath of living—which I think is what you’re getting at. And my belief accords with yours: no breath, no life; no life, no breath-soul. The above translation that I drew on (with some revision) translates it, in the second instance, as being; but nephesh is not the basic being word in Hebrew, so that is a rather free translation, in an attempt to achieve something easily readable in English.
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There are two other Hebrew soul-words in the Bible: ruach, generally translated as either wind or spirit, depending on context; and neshamah, generally translated as either breath or soul. All of these words are related to breath/air/wind in some way. That does not mean that they can’t be used to mean other things.
Ruach, for example, as spirit: I think life-force or energy is a good way to think of that. We also use it to refer to how someone or something expresses that life energy. We speak of a “spirited horse”, for example, or a “spirited conversation”; or say “She seems dispirited (or low in spirit) today”.
In that sense, however, it also has a psychological dimension that I think nephesh does not have. It is that added psychological dimension that I think, following general Jewish thought,* distinguishes ruach from nephesh.
Neshamah, again, is sometimes translated as “breath” and sometimes as “soul”. (In Psalm 150:6, for example, JPS translates kol ha’neshamah as “all that breathes”; my one Orthodox Jewish translation says “every soul”; it could also be rendered as “all breath”.)
I do not have a searchable version in Hebrew to look up all the usages of neshamah. 🙁 I can only draw on some rabbinical tradition here a bit, and that only clumsily. (I know you are a Bible-only person, so this is not intended for argument). There, this might be called the “transcendental” soul. It is an expression (for lack of a better word) of the divine, or “divine spark”, in the human being. If any soul, or aspect of soul, is considered immortal, this I believe would be it.
As part of the morning prayers, most Jews (at least its in all the prayer books I have) say Elohai neshamah sh’natata bi tehora hi: “My God, the soul you have given me, she is pure.” This does not mean that the person has kept it pure, by her faith, behavior, etc. That would be arrogant. It is a recognition that there is a “spark of the divine” in the person that he cannot taint (which would also be a kind of arrogance), and the prayer is part of the morning expression of thankfulness for life. That “soul” returns to the divine, whence it comes. That does not necessarily mean some immortality of any personal consciousness that we have while living; it might for some, for others not.
I personally do not believe in any such immortality of individual soul-consciousness-self-whatever. I’m open-minded, but it is not my personal belief. I am not a “Bible only” person, and I’m not arguing any theological position here.
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* By “general Jewish thought” I do not mean to imply any centralizing doctrine or belief; there really is none on soul in Judaism; some would agree with you, some would not. The same caveat applies to rabbinical tradition (e.g. in the Talmud). So certainly none of my comments should be taken as intending any “definitive” view.
14 Jan 10
Originally posted by galveston75You said that earlier and you were totally wrong then and you are still wrong now. The verse also says very clearly that the soul lives on after the body is killed.
Well if you think JW's don't believe in Christ then you really don't know anything about us.
Matt 10:28 as I said earlier is speaking of God being able to kill you permently which no man can...
14 Jan 10
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999Ok lets reason on this a little. If the soul of a person lives on after death and is conscience somehow then what would have been the purpose of God killing ones in the past that were bad or disobediant to the point of God wanting them dead? Is Adam & Eve still alive somewhere in the sense that your emplying? If the soul lives on then they are truly not dead as God had warned them if they ate of the tree.
You said that earlier and you were totally wrong then and you are still wrong now. The verse also says very clearly that the soul lives on after the body is killed.
This would also apply to all that God killed in the past for various reasons as a punishment for wrongdoings. Acts 3:23.
And we all sin thus our souls die. Ex 18:4.