Soul?

Originally posted by galveston75
Sorry that I missed your post. Just got carried away with others.
The actual point that can be debated is where the puntuation mark or emphasis is at in this sentenance with the word "Today." Most translations have it after "today" which looks like Jesus was talking about that immediate day that they died. But in reality puncuations were not used in t s the Bible says he was.
So Jesus had to speaking of a time period or day in the future.

...the emphasis is not really known. But if the comma were behind the word "today" it would give it a different meaning.

Not so, my friend. There are nearly 100 instances in the NT where Christ says, "Amen I say unto you," or, "Verily, verily I say unto you," as in Luke 23:43. It is a typical, formulaic way that Christ speaks and in not one of the nearly 100 instances of its use is the expression ( "Amen I say unto you" ) modified by an adverb of time, e.g., "today". It is a phrase which precedes a solemn expression of great significance in every case and is not modified by what comes after. The comma is placed before "today" in the vast majority of translations for a very good reason.

Also if it were that literal day that they died and went to the paradise that Jesus was speaking of to him, then Jesus was not really in the grave and dead for the 3 days the Bible says he was. So Jesus had to speaking of a time period or day in the future.

Obviously he couldn't be referring to their physical bodies. Both Christ and the thief died that day on their respective crosses. Therefore, He has to be referring to the immaterial aspect of a man's soul which survives death.

You can't have it both ways. Either the comma is in the wrong place and Christ didn't say they'd be in Paradise together that day, or Christ has given clear indication that a man's consciousness survives death. Since I've already shown that the former is false, Luke 23:43, therefore, is indeed biblical proof contrary to your claim. You may continue in your mistaken belief, but not without willfully denying what the scripture reveals.

Originally posted by galveston75
Is someone still here? No just my imagination I guess as he said he was thru and unable to answer my questions....

Consider this passage:

"And six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and brought them up to a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him" (Matthew 17:1-3).

Moses and Elijah, of course, are dead. And yet here they are conversing with Jesus. Clear proof that we outlive our bodies and are conscious after death.

__________


Here is another similar example:

"But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living" (Matthew 22:31-32).

Were Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive at the time of this statement? No. So how can they be described as living? Only if they are actually immortal souls that were alive after death. Again, clear biblical evidence contrary to your claim.

Originally posted by galveston75
Sorry that I missed your post. Just got carried away with others.
The actual point that can be debated is where the puntuation mark or emphasis is at in this sentenance with the word "Today." Most translations have it after "today" which looks like Jesus was talking about that immediate day that they died. But in reality puncuations were not used in t ...[text shortened]... s the Bible says he was.
So Jesus had to speaking of a time period or day in the future.

...the emphasis is not really known. But if the comma were behind the word "today" it would give it a different meaning.

Not so, my friend. There are nearly 100 instances in the NT where Christ says, "Amen I say unto you," or, "Verily, verily I say unto you," as in Luke 23:43. It is a typical, formulaic way that Christ speaks and in not one of the nearly 100 instances of its use is the expression ( "Amen I say unto you" ) modified by an adverb of time, e.g., "today". It is a phrase which precedes a solemn expression of great significance in every case and is not modified by what comes after. The comma is placed before "today" in the vast majority of translations for a very good reason.

Also if it were that literal day that they died and went to the paradise that Jesus was speaking of to him, then Jesus was not really in the grave and dead for the 3 days the Bible says he was. So Jesus had to speaking of a time period or day in the future.

Obviously he couldn't be referring to their physical bodies. Both Christ and the thief died that day on their respective crosses. Therefore, He has to be referring to the immaterial aspect of a man's soul which survives death.

You can't have it both ways. Either the comma is in the wrong place and Christ didn't say they'd be in Paradise together that day, or Christ has given clear indication that a man's consciousness survives death. Since I've already shown that the former is false, Luke 23:43, therefore, is indeed biblical proof contrary to your claim. You may continue in your mistaken belief, but not without willfully denying what the scripture reveals.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]...the emphasis is not really known. But if the comma were behind the word "today" it would give it a different meaning.

Not so, my friend. There are nearly 100 instances in the NT where Christ says, "Amen I say unto you," or, "Verily, verily I say unto you," as in Luke 23:43. It is a typical, formulaic way that Christ speaks and in not one of ...[text shortened]... istaken belief, but not without willfully denying what the scripture reveals.[/b]

Well all I have to say is neither of us were there to here Jesus say what he said to the man beside him.
But the proof is in the Bible that there is no indications that the soul lives on. As I asked Raj and he refused to contradict the many scriptures that says the soul dies, is this something your not going to respond to either?
If Jesus and the others that were resurrected were still alive somewhere floating around in space or something..why was it never mentioned by them?
I feel not much deep thought is being used here....But that's my opinion.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Explain? You want to EXPLAIN to me that Christ is God? LOL .. you are funny Jaywill. I dont think you even know why thats funny. I will tell you.

The words of Christ (and Paul for that matter) are simple and plain and FINAL. Their basic doctrine require no explanation. The only time that EXPLANATIONS are required is when you depart from the TRUTH... when ...[text shortened]... g. I simply quote the relevant verses and they speak for themselves. Try doing that sometimes.

Sounds reasonable to me 🙂

"I and the Father are one"-----Jesus Christ

Pretty well says it plain, don't it?

Originally posted by galveston75
Well all I have to say is neither of us were there to here Jesus say what he said to the man beside him.
But the proof is in the Bible that there is no indications that the soul lives on. As I asked Raj and he refused to contradict the many scriptures that says the soul dies, is this something your not going to respond to either?
If Jesus and the ot ...[text shortened]... mentioned by them?
I feel not much deep thought is being used here....But that's my opinion.

How about you respond specifically to the two examples I just presented. Are you purposefully ignoring them?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
How about you respond specifically to the two examples I just presented. Are you purposefully ignoring them?

Go back and slowly read.... I answered both of the questions. It's not what you want to hear, but I answered you.

Originally posted by galveston75
Go back and slowly read.... I answered both of the questions. It's not what you want to hear, but I answered you.

Sorry, I still don't see it. Perhaps you can clarify your response. I will pose the problem to you again in the form of question:

If nothing of a man's soul survives death, as you claim, then how do you explain the fact that Moses and Elijah, who are both dead, appeared and spoke with Jesus in Matthew 17:1-3?

I would be surprised if you have an explanation. The only conclusion to be drawn from Matthew 17:1-3 is that, yes, there is an aspect of a man's soul which survives death.

If you do not respond to my question at all or simply dodge it, I will assume that I have won this argument.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Sorry, I still don't see it. Perhaps you can clarify your response. I will pose the problem to you again in the form of question:

If nothing of a man's soul survives death, as you claim, then how do you explain the fact that Moses and Elijah, who are both dead, appeared and spoke with Jesus in Matthew 17:1-3?

I would be surprised if you have an e ...[text shortened]... espond to my question at all or simply dodge it, I will assume that I have won this argument.

Do you understand what a parable is? It was just an illustration from Jesus to help us understand a situation between to classes of people. This did not happen. It wasn't real. I don't know how else to explain this.

Originally posted by galveston75
Do you understand what a parable is? It was just an illustration from Jesus to help us understand a situation between to classes of people. This did not happen. It wasn't real. I don't know how else to explain this.

Galveston, I haven't presented you with a parable. I think you're still talking about Lazarus and the rich man. Matthew 17:1-3, which I just touched on in my last post, is NOT a parable, but a historical event. I'll reproduce it here again for your convenience:

"After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus."

If nothing of a man's soul survives death, as you claim, then how do you explain the fact that Moses and Elijah, who are both dead, appeared and spoke with Jesus in Matthew 17:1-3?

Originally posted by galveston75
Do you understand what a parable is? It was just an illustration from Jesus to help us understand a situation between to classes of people. This did not happen. It wasn't real. I don't know how else to explain this.

Since you are making a joke of this disucssion with your retarded statements, lets talk about other things :

***************
Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus chose the Watchtower Society as the true religion in 1919. All Jehovah's Witnesses know this but they are totally unable to explain it. They just know that the Watchtower Society is "Jehovah's Organization". This ridiculous claim has been repeated so many times in the Watchtower literature that it has become a "truth".*
*****************

Warroad Minnesota - The Ames Door Company, entering its' 100th year of production this year, is recognized a national leader in the design and production of residential doors. Their premier product, the Diplomat, is a top-of-the-line Pennsylvania oak six-panel door and frame, prized by home builders, that is shipped across the country in the companies' fleet of famous orange semi-trailers.

Always known for their handsome fit and finish, Ames Doors have become the industry standard for durability as well.

Company spokesman Neil Nedsum explained. "We have to design to a wide variety of climatic requirements however we have found the most universal and demanding requirement for any door is its ability to withstand repeated slamming in the face of Jehovah Witnesses."

"To meet the needs of our clients we have Jehovah Witnesses on staff as testers. They start out as you might expect, knocking on doors in pairs, usually with one feigning a disability to evoke sympathy, carrying copies of the Watchtower."

"We've hired angry housewives to answer the doors and just do what comes naturally. We keep them over-caffeinated and have them work double-duty as company day-care workers to keep it real."

"Doors are tested to 10,000 cycles so this amounts to a lot of work by our testing department."

Head of the Jehovah Witness testing department Ishmael Smits says "You have to have the right kind of nose for this kind of work."
*********************

Originally posted by Rajk999
Since you are making a joke of this disucssion with your retarded statements, lets talk about other things :

***************
Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus chose the Watchtower Society as the true religion in 1919. All Jehovah's Witnesses know this but they are totally unable to explain it. They just know that the Watchtower Society is "Jehovah's have the right kind of nose for this kind of work."
*********************

The going from door to door of the Jehovah's Witnesses is not a biblical problem. Actually it is quite commendable.

It is the wrong teachings that they bring to the door which is the problem.

But in going from door to door itself, this can be a good way to spread the truth.

Originally posted by galveston75
Do you understand what a parable is? It was just an illustration from Jesus to help us understand a situation between to classes of people. This did not happen. It wasn't real. I don't know how else to explain this.

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Do you understand what a parable is? It was just an illustration from Jesus to help us understand a situation between to classes of people. This did not happen. It wasn't real. I don't know how else to explain this.
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I have heard this explanation. But I do not buy it. In NO parable that I can think of by Jesus, was a person's name used.

The specifying of the man's name, "Lazarus", as in no other parable of Christ, argues for it being a historical event rather than a parable.

Originally posted by galveston75
Do you understand what a parable is? It was just an illustration from Jesus to help us understand a situation between to classes of people. This did not happen. It wasn't real. I don't know how else to explain this.

Not only is the person's name "Lazarus" used, uncostomarily for a parable, but you imply that Jesus is passing on wrong teaching.

If the soul is annhilated into non-existence when Lazarus, and Abraham, and the rich man died, then WHY would Jesus give a parable to the effect that their souls were not annhilated ?

If Jesus was teaching a parable it would not be filled with untrue ideas contrary to the truth of God's word elsewhere.

Originally posted by galveston75
Do you understand what a parable is? It was just an illustration from Jesus to help us understand a situation between to classes of people. This did not happen. It wasn't real. I don't know how else to explain this.

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Do you understand what a parable is?
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The stronger evidence is that the account of Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable.

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It was just an illustration from Jesus to help us understand a situation between to classes of people.
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And Jesus can help us understand a situation between classes of people just as well with a historical event He knew about.

He is not restricted to using parables to teach such things as this.

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This did not happen. It wasn't real.
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Assertions which I do not accept. These assertions are made by all those who believe in annhilation.

They do not want to fear Him who after the body is killed, has greater authority to inflict punishment upon the soul.

They simply rebel against this fear. And they rationalize that God does not have that authority.

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I don't know how else to explain this.
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Then you have a real problem. For this explanation you have given is completely inadaquate in justifying your doctrine of the soul's annhilation at physical death.

But let me ask you this: If that soul is annhilated at death. Then when Jesus resurrects someone, is that the same person or an entirely NEW person ?

How can God reward or punish a person that is brand new and never existed before?