Spirituality

Originally posted by josephw
you're going to hate this jammer. Follow your heart? God says the heart is deceitful, and to renew your mind. That, to me, is the truth.
Is it too personal for you? Do you have to get so frustrated over it?
I say this with my heart. My wife says I'm too critical of you. I'm sorry if I come across that way!

Don't hate that at all, and God hasen't spoken to me so I don't know what He says about it.
Don't see anything personal about it at all and don't feel frustrated either.
It wouldn't be possible to be TOO critical of me. Take your best shot.

You don't come across as critical at all, as a matter of fact, I read you as very sincere in what you have to say.
It's rare and that's why you will be slandered and put down in this forum IMO.
You may think you're talking with other sincere people here .. you'd be wrong. You're witnessing to mostly teenage richkids, raised in Godless cultures.

They see you as simply stupid to believe in God.
They're smarter than that.

You waste your time on such as these, you'd do better talking to strangers on the street, at least you could see in their eyes if they were seriously paying attention.

Originally posted by jammer
Don't hate that at all, and God hasen't spoken to me so I don't know what He says about it.
Don't see anything personal about it at all and don't feel frustrated either.
It wouldn't be possible to be TOO critical of me. Take your best shot.

You don't come across as critical at all, as a matter of fact, I read you as very sincere in what you have to say. ...[text shortened]... eet, at least you could see in their eyes if they were seriously paying attention.

I am not a teenager, or a rich kid. I was not raised in a Godless culture, and I don't think ANYONE is stupid. Everyone has the capacity to know God. I don't blame some of the kids who say they do not believe in God. I am a believer in God and I believe the Bible is His Word, but even I have a hard time swallowing the sin and salvation interpretation.

I think from the clash of ideas comes the spark of truth, so let's keep it going.

Originally posted by Varqa
Following the heart alone is deceitful. That is what the suicide bomber does.

I doubt that very much. My impression is that it's usually done for something they consider a "higher purpose", a construct of the mind, which they let overrule what their heart tells them. Unless people are mentally ill, they have a natural inhibition against committing suicide.

Originally posted by Wayne1324
I think this debate has been beaten into the ground.

However... I am an atheist. But, I do believe that there is something else after this life. I dont believe it is heaven or hell, and I dont know what it is. I just dont believe this is it.

i dont know the exact definition of Atheist, but isn't that statement a direct contradiction of the definition?
don't atheists believe that there is nothing else?

Originally posted by rubberjaw30
i dont know the exact definition of Atheist, but isn't that statement a direct contradiction of the definition?
don't atheists believe that there is nothing else?

No. Being an atheist doesn't mean you don't believe in anything supernatural, it means you don't believe in any god(s). Many atheists don't believe in anything supernatural, but some do. "Theos" = "god".

Originally posted by Nordlys
I doubt that very much. My impression is that it's usually done for something they consider a "higher purpose", a construct of the mind, which they let overrule what their heart tells them. Unless people are mentally ill, they have a natural inhibition against committing suicide.

Fanatical religious belief is a form of mental illness. But the guy who is doing the suicide bombing sincerely blieves he is doing what God wants him to do. He is willing to die for that idea. This is why following without questioning is so dangerous.
We all must learn to question our leaders. THEY DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO GOD, as thy would like to have us believe.

If it does not make sense it is probably not true.

Originally posted by Varqa
Fanatical religious belief is a form of mental illness. But the guy who is doing the suicide bombing sincerely blieves he is doing what God wants him to do. He is willing to die for that idea. This is why following without questioning is so dangerous.
We all must learn to question our leaders. THEY DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO GOD, as thy would like to have us believe.

If it does not make sense it is probably not true.

I completely agree with you. I just wouldn't say following a religious leader or a book is the same as following your heart. Not that following your heart without using your mind would always be a good idea, although I think it's less likely to do serious harm.

Originally posted by Nordlys
I completely agree with you. I just wouldn't say following a religious leader or a book is the same as following your heart. Not that following your heart without using your mind would always be a good idea, although I think it's less likely to do serious harm.

Agreed.
What do you think, Josephw?

Originally posted by Varqa
I see lot of references to the commentaries by the learned. I would like to raise a flag about the learned: In case you have forgotten, it was the learned that rejected Jesus. When it comes to searching for the truth, the religious leaders have the most to lose. Because if they were to accept a new idea, they will have to leave all their pomp and glory behind ...[text shortened]... to see if there is a spiritual angle by which we can look at the Adam, Eve, Sin, and salvation?

I'm happy to look for a spiritual angel to all of this but whenever I try most of my fellow Christians shoot me down. Let me some up the little game they seem to like to play...

When I attempt to seek spiritual revelation from a particular passage in the bible, everything is just fine until the moment I say something somebody disagrees with. Then, all of a sudden, my spiritual approach to the Bible is way to subjective and I need a more objective approach. This happened to me quite often when I was younger and attending youth group. So, I studied and I have continued to study and now I have a tiny little bit of knowledge. You would be amazed how little knowledge of the bible it takes to easily outpace most of the Christians you will come across. Anyway, I gain this knowledge and I try to answer questions (such as questions regarding theocidy (basically why God allows bad things to happen to good people)) and if what I find makes God look in any way different from the happy bearded grandfather figure many Christians have come to view him as I'm accused of twisting the Bible's words. There is no winning with these people. They will attack the spiritual and the learned alike if either discipline throws into doubt, even the slightest bit, their highly idealized and typically naive understanding of God and/or the Bible.

If my words sound condescending I am sorry but frankly most of the Christians I bump into deserve a healthy dose of condescension. I mean honestly, it is one thing to believe something you have no evidence for and quite another to believe it and then not be even the slightest bit curious what your only clue to the truth (Bible) actually means.

I'm not accusing any specific person here of any of this because it would start a pointless and silly debate about who knows more about the Bible and it just isn't worth it. Suffice to say, none of us know nearly enough about the Bible and certainly not enough to make definitive statements like the ones joseph was making. As I have said before, the one thing, as Christians, we can be most sure of is that we could very well be wrong. Having that in mind a little humility concerning questions of theology in the face of skepticism would not be unwelcome.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
I'm happy to look for a spiritual angel to all of this but whenever I try most of my fellow Christians shoot me down. Let me some up the little game they seem to like to play...

When I attempt to seek spiritual revelation from a particular passage in the bible, everything is just fine until the moment I say something somebody disagrees with. Then, al humility concerning questions of theology in the face of skepticism would not be unwelcome.

Religious belief is a strange thing, Skipper. I have spent years studying the Bible with Christians, many of whom are very dear friends of mine. I have learned over the years that it is best to look for similarities in belief rather than differences. Nothing can be accomplished when people are on the defensive. A wise man oc said:

"If they agree upon a subject, even though it be wrong, it is better than to disagree and be in the right, for this difference will produce the demolition of the divine foundation. Though one of the parties may be in the right and they disagree that will be the cause of a thousand wrongs, but if they agree and both parties are in the wrong, as it is in unity the truth will be revealed and the wrong made right."