12 Dec 05
Originally posted by NemesioI didn't actually think that people would claim it was NOT suicide; that really didn't occur to me. Some people on this site routinely say things I find morally reprehensible and shocking; it would not have surprised me at all if somebody had said, Yes, they're going to Hell.
#1: am I right? Or did I misunderstand your first post?
Nemesio
The idea that somehow I was stalking Darfius is a bit silly; Darfius hadn't posted here for months.
12 Dec 05
1 edit
Nemesio, in the context of the Dutch propaganda actions in favor of the "autonomy of the person" and in the context of the "right" to commit suicide a documentary was made about a man who was perfectly healthy, both in a physical sence and a mental sense. The doctors had declared he was healthy in every way.
He gathered with his family, his wife and children and he committed suicide with chemicals he swallowed and before he did this he drank champagne with his relatives to celebrate his death.
What do you think ? In the context of your "salvation economy", is this man willingly committing suicide and acting against God's will and therefore gravely sinning ? Will he surely end up in hell ? ... is he seriously risking his salvation ? ... or what ?
12 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderI didn't know this. How did you know that ? Did you check before you posted your first post ?
I didn't actually think that people would claim it was NOT suicide; that really didn't occur to me. Some people on this site routinely say things I find morally reprehensible and shocking; it would not have surprised me at all if somebody had said, Yes, they're going to Hell.
The idea that somehow I was stalking Darfius is a bit silly; Darfius hadn't posted here for months.
12 Dec 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeI guess to be more accurate I would say that I hadn't seen him post anything for months. No, I didn't check; why should I? It was a general observation aimed at people who think that suicide always leads to eternal damnation; certainly Darfius isn't the only one on this site who believes such a thing.
I didn't know this. How did you know that ? Did you check before you posted your first post ?
12 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderMarauder: "I didn't actually think that people would claim it was NOT suicide; that really didn't occur to me."
I didn't actually think that people would claim it was NOT suicide; that really didn't occur to me. Some people on this site routinely say things I find morally reprehensible and shocking; it would not have surprised me at all if somebody had said, Yes, they're going to Hell.
The idea that somehow I was stalking Darfius is a bit silly; Darfius hadn't posted here for months.
Here the trouble starts. You simply didn't think it through. Your mind was in a different mode, certainly not in the "trying to find the truth" mode.
Marauder: "Some people on this site routinely say things I find morally reprehensible and shocking; it would not have surprised me at all if somebody had said, Yes, they're going to Hell."
"It would not have surprised you" ... and isn't this exactly the thing you were hoping for so that you could once again jump on them and play your usual game, meaning abusing them, degrading them, bullying them and in this way punishing them ?
Of course you were. Your mind was in the usual "I'm going to get you" mode. You were hoping for another battle in your "war" against the fundies. Right ? ... and you thought the prospects were good for a victory ... but alas you fell in the hole you dug for your opponents. What you hoped for didn't happen. You failed.
12 Dec 05
1 edit
Originally posted by ivanhoeI want you to observe that I am going to answer your question.
Nemesio, in the context of the Dutch propaganda actions in favor of the "autonomy of the person" and in the context of the "right" to commit suicide a documentary was made about a man who was perfectly healthy, both in a physical sence and a mental sense. The doctors had declared he was healthy in every way.
First of all, regarding his right: yes, I believe he has that right (though I completely
disagree with his actions).
Second of all (I am going to assume that this scenario is a real one and not some
made up one), I would argue that a person who desired to die is not in fact
mentally healthy.
It reminds me of body integrity identify disorder (BIID). People with this illness
feel that one or more of their limbs shouldn't be there. That is, they have
viewed themselves since very young as being an amputee but the arm/leg is still
there, sort of like if you were born with a tail or something. These people try to
compel doctors to amputate the offending limb so that they can feel whole. Many
doctors will not amputate healthy limbs, but findings show that these people live
vastly happier lives, free of mental hardship in those circumstnaces where the limb(s)
has (have) been removed.
So, I would say that this guy had some odd form of BIID where his body was the
thing. Thus, he was sick and not morally culpable.
Nemesio
12 Dec 05
Originally posted by NemesioNemesio: I want you to observe that I am going to answer your question."
First of all, regarding his right: yes, I believe he has that right (though I completely
disagree with his actions).
Second of all (I am going to assume that this scenario is a real one and not some
made up one), I would argue that a person who desired to die [b]is not in fact
mentally healthy.
It reminds me of body integrity identify disorder ( ...[text shortened]... of BIID where his body was the
thing. Thus, he was sick and not morally culpable.
Nemesio[/b]
... and I want you to observe that my question is a fully open question. You can answer in the way you want. I am not forcing you to a "yes" or "no" answer, in other words you are not engaging yourself in a quizz in which I am the master and in which I try to control the questions, the context of the questions, the answers given and ultimately try to control the candidate, my opponent.
12 Dec 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeLook Ivanhoe, if you want to not answer questions and rant and rave like a lunatic,
... and I want you to observe that my question is a fully open question. You can answer in the way you want. I am not forcing you to a "yes" or "no" answer, in other words you are not engaging yourself in a quizz in which I am the master and in which I try to control the questions, the context of the questions, the answers given and ultimately try to control the candidate, my opponent.
you have that right.
But, in answering your question, I shed light on an opinion which you, #1, DrS or
whoever can make observations, criticisms, objections, or their own questions.
Answering 'yes,' 'no,' or 'I don't know' are all fine. What you do is complain that
people are trying to convince you.
The reason you sense conflict out here is because you have conflict inside. And in
crying 'foul' when someone asks you a tough question is just an effort to keep your
head stuck in the sand. You want comfort and reinforcement.
I pull mine out, to breathe the fresh air even at the expense of having it criticized.
And I am the richer for it.
Do you have any comments about my post? A 'yes, no, I dunno,' or anything else?
Or was this another one of your little exercises to make people jump through hoops
to have no reciprocal commentary?
Nemesio
12 Dec 05
2 edits
Originally posted by ivanhoeDo you ever actually read the raving that you do in a post like this one? You must be certifiably insane.
[b/]Marauder: "I didn't actually think that people would claim it was NOT suicide; that really didn't occur to me."
Here the trouble starts. You simply didn't think it through. Your mind was in a different mode, certainly not in the "trying to find the truth" mode.
Marauder: "Some people on this site routinely say things I find morally r ...[text shortened]... you fell in the hole you dug for your opponents. What you hoped for didn't happen. You failed.
First, I don't "think through" every possible irrational response to everything I post on an internet chess site. That these people committed suicide by every standard definition is what I was thinking; I have no reason to try to anticipate that people are going to create their own definitions. I have a dictionary; I use it.
I know it's very important for you to think that somehow I "failed" and my evil plans were foiled, but in actuality I got far more feedback than I anticipated. Many people posted and most, unlike you over the last 15 pages, discussed the subject of the thread in some kind of meaningful way. I disagreed with a lot of what was said and wish some people had been more responsive to questions asked and points raised, but all in all it was a pretty good thread until you hijacked it.
I have to accept that every time I start a thread here, you will attempt to divert it into the same petty argument about others' so-called "tactics" "methods" "bullying" etc. etc. etc. etc. that you have whined and complained about in about a thousand posts in the last year. Like a 4 year old wanting attention you will continue to pull on the sleeve on the RHP community on a subject nobody cares about but yourself. You are a self-absorbed, petty and jealous individual; I'm very sorry that more people don't take an interest in your foolish crusade and cut and paste jobs from the Vatican and are more interested in things like the moral issues concerning suicide. I feel sorry for you, but I wish you would stop being so destructive of rational discussion in this forum. You have an unhealthy fixation that is obvious, sad and distracting to the grown ups here, Ivanhoe.
12 Dec 05
Originally posted by NemesioNemesio: "Look Ivanhoe, if you want to not answer questions and rant and rave like a lunatic,
Look Ivanhoe, if you want to not answer questions and rant and rave like a lunatic,
you have that right.
But, in answering your question, I shed light on an opinion which you, #1, DrS or
whoever can make observations, criticisms, objections, or their own questions.
Answering 'yes,' 'no,' or 'I don't know' are all fine. What you do is compla ...[text shortened]... little exercises to make people jump through hoops
to have no reciprocal commentary?
Nemesio
you have that right."
Relax, chill out .... nothing is happening. No need for insults.
Nemesio: "What you do is complain that
people are trying to convince you."
Get rid of your crystal ball.
Nemesio: "The reason you sense conflict out here is because you have conflict inside. And in
crying 'foul' when someone asks you a tough question is just an effort to keep your
head stuck in the sand. You want comfort and reinforcement."
Sure I want comfort and reinforcement, don't you ? ... and everybody has "conflict" inside ... at least when you're not dead .... I wonder however what all this this has to do with the price of fish and your and marauder's Manipulative Debating Techniques ....
Nemesio: "And in
crying 'foul' when someone asks you a tough question is just an effort to keep your
head stuck in the sand. You want comfort and reinforcement."
The image you're presenting isn't very enlightening I'm afraid. You still seem to be missing the point.
Nemesio: "I pull mine out, to breathe the fresh air even at the expense of having it criticized.
And I am the richer for it."
Get off.
12 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderWell, you just broke the record. How many insults do you count in your post, marauder ?
Do you ever actually read the raving that you do in a post like this one? You must be certifiably insane.
First, I don't "think through" every possible irrational response to everything I post on an internet chess site. That these people committed suicide by every standard definition is what I was thinking; I have no reason to try to anticip ...[text shortened]... have an unhealthy fixation that is obvious, sad and distracting to the grown ups here, Ivanhoe.
One conclusion is here to stay. You are a secular fundamentalist with extreme views and insulting manipulative debating techniques. You proved the former in this thread and the latter in particular in your last post.
See ya.
12 Dec 05
Nowhere in the bible does God say that people who commit suicide go to hell.That is an assumption that man has made.Those who go to hell are those who chose not to be Gods children ,he wants us all to be his thats why Jesus gave his life for ours .Its our choice were we spend eternity.For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that all who belive shall not parrish (in hell)but have everlasting life.(with God in heaven)
12 Dec 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeYou are a sad person, Ivanhoe. You really are. You act so convinced of your beliefs,
[b]Nemesio: "Look Ivanhoe, if you want to not answer questions and rant and rave like a lunatic,
you have that right."
Relax, chill out .... nothing is happening. No need for insults.
Nemesio: "What you do is complain that
people are trying to convince you."
Get rid of your crystal ball.
Nemesio: "The reason you sense con ...[text shortened]... air even at the expense of having it criticized.
And I am the richer for it."
Get off.[/b]
but when it comes down to it, all you want is to be told what to believe. Why do I
say this? Because you become paranoid the second anyone asserts a position contrary
to yours. They become 'Secular Fundamentalists' or 'Neo-Kantians' or whatever.
The thing is, it's all projection. You're the one who is insecure and you hate those of
use who are not afraid to ask challenging questions.
Go wrap yourself in the blanket of your faith, Ivanhoe. I'm sure it's nice and cozy.
Try not to cry too much over what a sham your moral stances often are.
Nemesio
12 Dec 05
Originally posted by NemesioOuch, this hurts ..... 🙂
You are a sad person, Ivanhoe. You really are. You act so convinced of your beliefs,
but when it comes down to it, all you want is to be told what to believe. Why do I
say this? Because you become paranoid the second anyone asserts a position contrary
to yours. They become 'Secular Fundamentalists' or 'Neo-Kantians' or whatever.
The thing is, ...[text shortened]... ice and cozy.
Try not to cry too much over what a sham your moral stances often are.
Nemesio
12 Dec 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeSometimes people who commit suicide go through a period of 'letting go' and become in a sense normal in every way for a time only to succumb to suicide.It is a shock to friends and family as they think the problem is sorted but in reality they are just dropped off a higher cliff.
Nemesio, in the context of the Dutch propaganda actions in favor of the "autonomy of the person" and in the context of the "right" to commit suicide a documentary was made about a man who was perfectly healthy, both in a physical sence and a mental sense. The doctors had declared he was healthy in every way.
He gathered with his family, his wife and ch ...[text shortened]... ning ? Will he surely end up in hell ? ... is he seriously risking his salvation ? ... or what ?
In NZ we have had an attitude problem of being expected to deal with problems on our own.Some tough proud attitude which hides problems that need attention...a shared attitude prob with many around the world.Still these can also be good qualities depending on the situation.