The Book Of Revelation Effect

Originally posted by Suzianne
The Bible is not a scapegoat.

Exactly. The Bible is not a scapegoat. It is the basis of Christian belief.

Originally posted by FMF
The quotation marks are words or phrases you or others have used just to be clear that they are not necessarily my choice of words. I use them for this purpose all the time and have done for years. It's a pity that you have decided to talk about "semantic games". I thought we were having a good, straight forward conversation. Look back and read our exchange. Whe ...[text shortened]... ess and assume instead that it's a sudden, one day to the next, believe then not believe, thing.

Well, this is what I was aiming at, the particulars that you left out. To support your premise, that it was the Book of Revelation that caused your disbelief, it's more logical to assume it happened at the first reading of it. Twenty years later, after believing in the truth of it all that time, to just decide that it was no longer credible seems bizarre to me. Even if it was a gradual process, that just highlights that there had to be other factors at play. I still maintain that your disbelief came first and then you started considering the Book of Revelation as "not credible" from your disbelief, even as a gradual process. Also, Christians (not all of them to be sure) are often infused with the Holy Spirit, it is a gift given to us to guide us and to promote our understanding (again, some do appear to be lacking in this). I'm of the opinion that one function of the Holy Spirit is to keep us "on the straight and narrow", to enable us to deal with doubts and questions and to thus keep our faith. Prayer also is invaluable in this. Now that I have more info on your situation, it does seem a bit more believable, but I still think there just has to be more to it. I have heard of people slowly falling away from the church, but this also seems very rare to me. Most often I think there must be some sort of catastrophic change in a person's life that leaves them unable to continue on as before. I'm still not willing to believe (perhaps even more so now, given that your disbelief was a process over much time) that a book of the Bible could be blamed for your turning away. It just seems "fishy" to me, as if you're being quick to point to the Bible's credibility and saying "See? Its credibility is so bad that it cost me my faith." I'm just saying there has to be more to this claim than meets the eye. I do not know of any other "ex-Christians" who blame the Bible in this way. It is a source of strength and faith for Christians, it's not our "kryptonite". It feeds and sustains us, it does not starve us. Something else had to be responsible for the starvation, or perhaps strangulation, of faith that caused you to turn away.

If I was quick to suggest you were being semantic with me, it's only because I've been burned by this before, and by you particularly. When you start questioning the meaning of my words instead of the concepts they convey, I'm even more bound to just stop and take a step back, rather than be made fun of. It's happened before, is my defense.

And if I've assumed anything in this conversation, it's because you were not very forthcoming with the details, even after being asked.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Well, this is what I was aiming at, the particulars that you left out. To support your premise, that it was the Book of Revelation that caused your disbelief, it's more logical to assume it happened at the first reading of it. Twenty years later, after believing in the truth of it all that time, to just decide that it was no longer credible seems bizarre ...[text shortened]... nversation, it's because you were not very forthcoming with the details, even after being asked.

Best line in a long time:

It feeds and sustains us, it does not starve us.

Salute.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I'm still not willing to believe (perhaps even more so now, given that your disbelief was a process over much time) that a book of the Bible could be blamed for your turning away.

OK, your unwillingness is noted. Presumably you believe that, somehow, Christian faith can or must continue even after a person stops finding the books its based on credible. This wasn't so for me. When my faith in the literature crumbled, so did my faith in claims surrounding it.

Originally posted by Suzianne
If I was quick to suggest you were being semantic with me, it's only because I've been burned by this before, and by you particularly. When you start questioning the meaning of my words instead of the concepts they convey, I'm even more bound to just stop and take a step back, rather than be made fun of.

I have not made fun of you. I simply put quotation marks around words or phrases you had used in order to make it clear that the word choices were yours and not mine. It also meant that I was dealing directly with what you said and not putting words in your mouth. And when I need to question your "concepts", I will of course have to "question the meaning of [your] words". In this case, for example, I question your use of the expression "semantic games" on this thread. You can't find a single post by me in this conversation that deserves the label. 🙂

Originally posted by Suzianne
I do not know of any other "ex-Christians" who blame the Bible in this way.

I would say that the lack of credibility of the bible, and the lack of credibility of all the claims that surround what is written there, is at the very heart of every single ex-Christian's reason for no longer believing what Christians believe. So, while it's your prerogative to claim you "don't know of any", I would say it's true for all of them, and certainly every single one I have met.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I have heard of people slowly falling away from the church, but this also seems very rare to me. Most often I think there must be some sort of catastrophic change in a person's life that leaves them unable to continue on as before.

Well now, with me, you have an example of an ex-Christian who did not undergo "some sort of catastrophic change". As you say, you have heard of people exiting in a more gradual way, and now you can add me to that list of people you have heard of. 🙂

Originally posted by FMF
I have not made fun of you. I simply put quotation marks around words or phrases you had used in order to make it clear that the word choices were yours and not mine. It also meant that I was dealing directly with what you said and not putting words in your mouth. And when I need to question your "concepts", I will of course have to "question the meaning of [you ...[text shortened]... this thread. You can't find a single post by me in this conversation that deserves the label. 🙂

"in this conversation"... This is not the only conversation we've ever had.

Originally posted by Suzianne
If you now want to play semantic games with me (your sudden, liberal use of quotes tipped me off, you have to remember I've been to this particular rodeo before), it'll have to wait until tomorrow.

Where are these "semantic games"?

Originally posted by FMF
OK, your unwillingness is noted. Presumably you believe that, somehow, Christian faith can or must continue even after a person stops finding the books its based on credible. This wasn't so for me. When my faith in the literature crumbled, so did my faith in claims surrounding it.

No. What I believe is that I find it practically impossible to completely believe in scripture for twenty years as you say you did, and it slowly becomes more and more incredible to you. Why the change? The words of the Bible do not change. The cause of the change is the same as the change of heart you experienced overall. I say your belief changed, then your disbelief in the scripture was collateral damage to that. This is why I say blaming your loss of faith on the poor credibility of scripture is missing the point. You believed it for so long already, it could not have been a change of heart about the scripture that was the catalyst in your overall disbelief. It's the same scripture. Perhaps you were seeing the scripture with new eyes provided by your overall disbelief of the religion, so it was an effect, but not the cause.

You say you believed the scripture for nearly twenty years. Were your small doubts and questions that you say snowballed into disbelief there in the very beginning? If so, I would call that a lack of faith in the first place. Plus, I wonder why you never sought out answers to your doubts and questions. Or did you, and you found the answers insufficient? Twenty years is a long time to harbor snowballing doubts without going over a threshold for utter disbelief.

Pardon my many questions. This is so far out of my ken.

Originally posted by FMF
Where are these "semantic games"?

Other threads, other conversations. Threads in which I was so offended by your actions that I once resolved to never have another conversation with you.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Other threads, other conversations. Threads in which I was so offended by your actions that I once resolved to never have another conversation with you.

Other threads? So there have been no "semantic games" on this one?

Originally posted by Suzianne
Twenty years is a long time to harbor snowballing doubts without going over a threshold for utter disbelief.

I didn't harbour doubts for twenty years.

Originally posted by Suzianne
This is why I say blaming your loss of faith on the poor credibility of scripture is missing the point. You believed it for so long already, it could not have been a change of heart about the scripture that was the catalyst in your overall disbelief.

But it was "a change of heart" [although that's not the turn of phrase I'd use] about the credibility of scripture that led to me being an ex-Christian. I am not "missing the point". The point I am making is mine to make: I have not "missed" it. If anything here, your incorrect 'twenty years of doubts' notion is missing the point I am making.

Originally posted by FMF
But it [b]was "a change of heart" [although that's not the turn of phrase I'd use] about the credibility of scripture that led to me being an ex-Christian. I am not "missing the point". The point I am making is mine to make: I have not "missed" it. If anything here, your incorrect 'twenty years of doubts' notion is missing the point I am making.[/b]

lack of exercise led to a spiritual cardiac arrest! 😵 so sad and so preventable.