23 Nov 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieTo me, the ancients told these stories, and I expect they were told orally for untold years around community gatherings, much the same as the "Dreaming" stories of the indigenous population of Australia. They too have beautiful myths with meaning.
no worries, in retrospect i was thinking what spiritual points of interest you might take from the account of Adam and Eve, perhaps if you have the time one day you may elucidate upon it 🙂
The Genesis stories include early theistic religious thought expressing such great themes as;
- that man is different from the beasts and has a divine origin;
- the concept of an innocent "paradise" before the muck up that man brought to it.
Even way back then we find the earliest realisation that life has suffering, ignorance and wrong and seeking for an answer.
- The fruit of the "Tree of knowledge of good and evil" is a significant and possibly the highest thought in the stories. It is possible that in this one of earliest of human mythic stories there is the first first indication of awareness that the problem had something to do with getting too caught up in the all the dualities of life.
Well, that's my very basic exegesis anyway.
Joseph Campbell is the famous researcher of myths and their meanings. Many myths of man have similarities, and some like Jung referred to them as archetypes, basic dream-like figures and stories expressing our strongest and deepest inner journeying. The serpent is an oft repeated one, as well as pure innocents, and dark destructive figures battling with beings of light etc.
These are not lies but man trying to grapple in stories with the deepest conflicting motivating forces that man faces both individually and in communities in every period, not just ancient Babylonia.
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23 Nov 10
Originally posted by menace71In some formulations it does result in stored energy being used for work and ending up as heat.
Please explain how this is wrong as I understand This effects or is it affects all systems including biological systems. I did read it somewhere. Maybe I did misunderstand it. Heat loss or energy loss. That can never really be reclaimed.
Manny
It says nothing whatsoever about the longevity of systems that are not closed systems, and even for closed systems, it doesn't really say a whole lot about longevity either. Even a closed system may have enough stored energy to keep doing work for billions and billions of years, so it is somewhat ridiculous to blame the second law for the lack of longevity in humans.
I must also point out that life itself is a system that as far as we know has being going for billions of years and could well go on for billions more.
23 Nov 10
Originally posted by Taomanit seems apparent that the tree of knowledge of good and bad is symbolic of moral independence.
To me, the ancients told these stories, and I expect they were told orally for untold years around community gatherings, much the same as the "Dreaming" stories of the indigenous population of Australia. They too have beautiful myths with meaning.
The Genesis stories include early theistic religious thought expressing such great themes as;
- that man is d ...[text shortened]... oth individually and in communities in every period, not just ancient Babylonia.
-
23 Nov 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIt doesn't say the fruit was symbolic. I can read it as it is, letter by letter.
it seems apparent that the tree of knowledge of good and bad is symbolic of moral independence.
You cannot just read some symbolic, some letter by letter, some saying it's true, other not exactly true, but symbolic. You cannot have it all in a wimsical way. Either the bible is true, or it is not.
Perhaps you say next time that even god is symbolic?
23 Nov 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasEver seen a tree of knowledge of good and bad, no neither have I 🙂
It doesn't say the fruit was symbolic. I can read it as it is, letter by letter.
You cannot just read some symbolic, some letter by letter, some saying it's true, other not exactly true, but symbolic. You cannot have it all in a wimsical way. Either the bible is true, or it is not.
Perhaps you say next time that even god is symbolic?
23 Nov 10
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieSo we conclude that there wasn't any tree of knowledge, no talking snake, no two people starting the humanity, and so on. Can we include the flooding as well? Everything just symbols?
Ever seen a tree of knowledge of good and bad, no neither have I 🙂
23 Nov 10
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Originally posted by FabianFnasyou can conclude what you like dear Fabian, that the tree while being a real tree was symbolic of something else seems to me to be self evident. Snakes do not talk.
So we conclude that there wasn't any tree of knowledge, no talking snake, no two people starting the humanity, and so on. Can we include the flooding as well? Everything just symbols?
23 Nov 10
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieThis is important to me in order to understand the JW thinking about the subject.
you can conclude what you like dear Fabian, that the tree while being a real tree was symbolic of something else seems to me to be self evident. Snakes do not talk.
Snakes don't talk, you say, despite the one in genesis. That snake was only symbolic.
Who decides? Everyone for himself, or is it a higher authority who decides what stories, what elements in each story that is symbolic or by the letter?
If two christians don't agree, both representing the biblical Truth, who decides?
23 Nov 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasthe snake in Genesis did not talk it was used by Satan as a ventriloquist uses a dummy. Snakes don't talk. Everyone must make up their own minds about these things, what else is there?
This is important to me in order to understand the JW thinking about the subject.
Snakes don't talk, you say, despite the one in genesis. That snake was only symbolic.
Who decides? Everyone for himself, or is it a higher authority who decides what stories, what elements in each story that is symbolic or by the letter?
If two christians don't agree, both representing the biblical Truth, who decides?
23 Nov 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou made me somwhat unsre here, so I read in my bible, and I found in the first vers of the 3rd chapter that indeed the snake spoke. You say symbolically, and that's the question.
the snake in Genesis did not talk it was used by Satan as a ventriloquist uses a dummy. Snakes don't talk. Everyone must make up their own minds about these things, what else is there?
I repeat my last posting and ask you to answer my question:
Snakes don't talk, you say, despite the one in genesis. That snake was only symbolic.
Who decides? Everyone for himself, or is it a higher authority who decides what stories, what elements in each story that is symbolic or by the letter?
If two christians don't agree, both representing the biblical Truth, who decides?
I don't think it is difficult to answer. If it indeed is, then we have a flaw somewhere...
23 Nov 10
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Originally posted by FabianFnasIt is very interesting to me when you study miracles in the Bible, that they often come in pairs of twos. The speaking serpent in Genesis is matched by the speaking donkey in Numbers.
This is important to me in order to understand the JW thinking about the subject.
Snakes don't talk, you say, despite the one in genesis. That snake was only symbolic.
Who decides? Everyone for himself, or is it a higher authority who decides what stories, what elements in each story that is symbolic or by the letter?
If two christians don't agree, both representing the biblical Truth, who decides?
The sun and moon standing still in Joshua is matched by the sundial moving backwards in Isaiah.
This scheme of presenting unusual things as a couplet to me is as if God is saying "That's right. You heard me right. I said a speaking serpent. And here it is matched with a speaking donkey latter on."
Now if one cannot digest a speaking serpent in Genesis, one can place this on the back burner. What I think is important to see is this:
Mankind's origins on this earth are rooted in the supernatural. That is the general message I receive here.
Man's origin on earth has its foundations in that which is supernatural. The initiation of our race in this world is with events not typical of our daily life. Of course no serpents speak.
But God has to communicate with our race that the foundations of our existence on this planet is with supernatural matters. And He communicates it in a way that even a third grader can understand.
All these things happened according to what God permitted. It could be that there are many more details we are not told. It could be that something of the deep occult was at work. We are told of a serpent which spoke. And what is SAID by the serpent are the things associated with all intelligent opposition to God.
The bottom line - Supernatural intelligence in opposition to our Creator is at the root of man's alienation from God and the collapse of his environment.
23 Nov 10
Originally posted by FabianFnas(Genesis 3:1) Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it began to say to the woman: “Is it really so that God said you must not eat from every tree of the garden?”
You made me somwhat unsre here, so I read in my bible, and I found in the first vers of the 3rd chapter that indeed the snake spoke. You say symbolically, and that's the question.
I repeat my last posting and ask you to answer my question:
Snakes don't talk, you say, despite the one in genesis. That snake was only symbolic.
Who decides? Everyone f ...[text shortened]...
I don't think it is difficult to answer. If it indeed is, then we have a flaw somewhere...
Putting the scripture within the realms of the entire Bible and reasoning upon it, we learn that, the original serpent is in fact Satan,
(Revelation 12:9) . . .So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan. . .
(Revelation 20:2) 2 And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
therefore knowing that the original serpent/snake was satanic and realising that snakes don't talk we use our powers of reason and state that indeed, in a literal interpretation of the Eden account, Satan utilised a snake so as to make it appear to talk to the women for snakes don't talk.
23 Nov 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasNo actually most of these flood stories talk of the whole earth being flooded. Not a localized flood. I read these somewhere recently. Sure some of the stories seem crazy like one was one of the gods basically urinated and flooded the earth LOL 🙂 I do believe Columbus came to the new world but how do we know this? We have to trust some of the writings of antiquity or how would we know anything of the past?
100's of local floods don't make one global flood.
Shells on high altitudes just proves tectonics in work.
If you doubt Columbus arrival to the New World, then you doubt much.
On the other hand - if you take stories as true only because they are told, written, or experienced, then you would surely belive in evolution, BigBang, or any science, because they are told, written, and experienced.
Manny
23 Nov 10
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Ok after reading more the second law of thermodynamics does not necessarily milt ate against evolution. Hey I trying learn 😉
Does the Second Law of Thermodynamics disprove evolution?
The Second Law of Thermodynamics, which states that all things tend toward a greater degree of disorder (entropy) is not violated by evolution. The Second Law applies only to closed systems without energy input; the earth has energy input from the sun (though it will eventually cease to shine). Remember that life is the localized and temporary reversal (not violation) of the law of increasing entropy. As Michael Shermer put it in Why People Believe Weird Things, "Evolution no more breaks the Second Law of Thermodynamics than one breaks the law of gravity by jumping up" (p.150). Please see Talk.Origins - The Second Law of Thermodynamics, Evolution, and Probability
I copied and pasted this as this is what I was reading.
Manny
23 Nov 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieR.C. snakes talk in Harry Potter LOL 🙂
(Genesis 3:1) Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it began to say to the woman: “Is it really so that God said you must not eat from every tree of the garden?”
Putting the scripture within the realms of the entire Bible and reasoning upon it, we learn that, the original ...[text shortened]... nt, Satan utilised a snake so as to make it appear to talk to the women for snakes don't talk.
Manny
PS: just trying to inject a bit of humor