20 Dec 22
@moonbus saidI have looked into it but while my findings support my personal insight that the bible is not the complete, exclusive, inerrant word of God they were not the reason I have taken that position.
Do some historical research. Find out how and when the NT came to be. It will answer many of your questions (none of which Kelly will ever be able to).
KellyJay is now so bound up that he is even refusing to concur that he believes that the bible IS the complete, exclude and inerrant word of God. I can understand why he is now adopting this stance on this forum.
@divegeester saidKelly’s faith is, how shall I put this gently, uninformed. May I suggest you inform yourself? I recommend this to you: a well-respected historian looks at how the Bible came to be:
I’ve pointed out to him several times that faith in the bible rather than faith in God/Christ is a form of idolatry.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Unauthorized-Version-Truth-Fiction-Bible/dp/0141022965/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=3UQN48CKSUKPA&keywords=unauthorized+version&qid=1671522256&sprefix=insuthotized+version%2Caps%2C111&sr=8-1
As I have pointed out several times, the NT cannot have been how the religion survived its first three centuries because the NT didn’t exist until the Council of Nicea. This is the bit Kelly and Bible worshippers just don’t get .
@divegeester saidWell, this bears investigation. Historical investigation, not just quoting and re-quoting bits of the NT or vapid tautologies as Kelly does (“truth is truth and cannot contradict itself” ).
Hardly a revelation.
20 Dec 22
@divegeester saidI would say, arguing at cross purposes.
And you wonder why we sometimes clash.
20 Dec 22
@moonbus saidHave I ever done this to you? No.
Well, this bears investigation. Historical investigation, not just quoting and re-quoting bits of the NT or vapid tautologies as Kelly does (“truth is truth and cannot contradict itself” ).
Try to understand that when debating different people here one needs to use different frames of reference. KellyJay’s frame of reference is only the bible, therefore I use the bible to unpick his own arguments. He’s not going to accept secular references no matter how authentic they may be.
20 Dec 22
2 edits
@moonbus saidThe letters and gospels were written way before the Council of Nicea, what you don't
Kelly’s faith is, how shall I put this gently, uninformed. May I suggest you inform yourself? I recommend this to you: a well-respected historian looks at how the Bible came to be:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Unauthorized-Version-Truth-Fiction-Bible/dp/0141022965/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=3UQN48CKSUKPA&keywords=unauthorized+version&qid=1671522256&sprefix=insuthotized+version%2Caps ...[text shortened]... idn’t exist until the Council of Nicea. This is the bit Kelly and Bible worshippers just don’t get .
get is that even without Nicea they were already written and passed down to other
Christians, just not what you call, "authorized". God doesn't require a man-made
blessing, but uses man to do His work. Your point the church could not have
survived sounds reasonable if you take God out of the equation which you are apt
to do, which is the part you don't get. Well-respected historians, who also don't
have God in play, are not sources I'm concerned about, as some disagree with
them, pick your historian.
20 Dec 22
1 edit
@moonbus saidIf you have a doctrine that runs contrary to what is in the Bible, speak out and talk
It was the Council of Nicea which chose precisely those scrolls to canonize, the ones which identified Jesus with the godhead, and destroyed the other gospels. Fortunately, a cache of other gospels did survive, and have been published as the Nag Hamadi Library. Every Christian should read them and thoroughly digest the alternative Christianities presented therein.
about it, because if it runs counter, that is why because they run counter they are
not part of the text, among other reasons. Jesus not being the Word of God, what
else do you have that only an Anti-Christ and Atheist would love to see in the Word
that a Christian would reject?
20 Dec 22
@kellyjay saidKellyJay is the bible the complete, exclusive and inerrant word of God?
If you have a doctrine that runs contrary to what is in the Bible, speak out and talk
about it, because if it runs counter, that is why because they run counter they are
not part of the text, among other reasons. Jesus not being the Word of God, what
else do you have that only an Anti-Christ and Atheist would love to see in the Word
that a Christian would reject?
@divegeester saidI've answered your question, you said you wanted something that would convince
KellyJay is the bible the complete, exclusive and inerrant word of God?
you, I don't believe anything can convince you since you don't want to be convinced
so the only thing you are doing here by continuing to ask what was already given
you are that you see this as a means to harass me, so you can take cheap shots.
If you were interested in that question you would have asked specific questions
instead of saying that my whole answer was bad without an explanation to the
points you disliked, keep this up, we can stop all two-way conversations just a
warning.
If you are actually interested in that question, ask specific questions about the
points I have already given you, if not, you got what you got, and you can use it
for the real reason you are asking, just to harass and belittle, it is a game with you
that I'm not going to play.
@divegeester saidLove God, love yourself, love your neighbor, forgive everyone including those who torment you. If people had actually followed his example, instead of propagating doctrines and dogmas, there would have been a whole lot less horror these last two millennia. No pogroms, no witch burning, no crusades, no heresy trials.
And so began the Roman Catholic Church, the mother of all the harlot churches and denominations down the centuries.
Jesus said “I will write my law on their hearts”.
For me this is one of the most powerful texts in the Bible.
@divegeester saidIndeed .. written in the hearts of all men. Add that to the one that says, the free gift of justification came on all men, and you have the proof that anyone can enter the Kingdom of God if they practice charity per Matt 25.
And so began the Roman Catholic Church, the mother of all the harlot churches and denominations down the centuries.
Jesus said “I will write my law on their hearts”.
For me this is one of the most powerful texts in the Bible.