The Fear Of God

Originally posted by whodey
By whose standards do people live "good" lives?

I've already answered this. I'd be interested in an actual response, not your repeat of a question I have at least already tried to field.

Originally posted by FMF
And for a person not subscribing to the belief that the God figure you happen to believe in "is not just all knowing, he is benevolent as well", the punishment is being tortured for eternity in burning agony, that is your theological view, right?

As the story in Genesis tells us, if God had not shortened the lives of men, they would become so wicked they would turn the earth into hell itself. Imagine how much damage someone like a Hitler could do living a 1000 years.

As it is, the earth is bad enough with genocide at every turn, whether it be in the form of infidels, Jews, Christians in the Sudan, or the unborn. Things will get so bad according the scripture, that God will have to intervene directly or mankind would destroy himself altogether.

So what are we to do with this rebellion? Should we force them to submit to God or should we allow them to choose to conform in order to do away with sin and subsequent suffering?

Or do you think that continual suffering, as it exists now, and death is acceptable for all of eternity?

Originally posted by FMF
I've already answered this. I'd be interested in an actual response, not your repeat of a question I have at least already tried to field.

My point here is that I don't always know what is "good". Good is often in the eyes of the beholder. We have an internal compass that helps us, but it can falter.

Examples of this are slavery and abortion. When slavery was once legal, most would probably say that it was "OK", even though not ideal. However, centuries later after being outlawed, the thought of slavery is absurd and considered a great evil. Abortion is much the same. Before being legalized, it was seen as immoral and evil. However, decades later it is also deemed to be "OK", even though not ideal.

Both slavery and abortion, which I consider to be a result of sin, were created for monetary reasons. People just could not afford to hire people to work the plantations, and people also feel that that extra child would destroy them financially. Although this is not the same for all, on average it is. Most women have abortions due to financial concerns or career concerns.

Having said that, this brings two truths from the Bible to light. Humans are sheep. We tend to adhere to the morality of those we perceive to be in authority such as the state which is why the pendulum of society has swung from one extreme to the other over the years. Also, the love of money is the root of all evil. Usually when a great evil occurs, it has to do with the love of money. Money is why people prostitute themselves, kill, steal, etc.

Originally posted by whodey
As the story in Genesis tells us, if God had not shortened the lives of men, they would become so wicked they would turn the earth into hell itself. Imagine how much damage someone like a Hitler could do living a 1000 years.

As it is, the earth is bad enough with genocide at every turn, whether it be in the form of infidels, Jews, Christians in the Sudan, ...[text shortened]... u think that continual suffering, as it exists now, and death is acceptable for all of eternity?

An answer to the question I put to you would be of more interest to me.

Here's another twin-barrelled one that's along the same lines: [1] what actual deterrent effect and behaviour modification effect do you think the threat of being tortured for eternity in burning agony has on people who don't subscribe to the belief system surrounding this supposed punishment? and [2] if it has no deterrent effect [in terms of behaviour] on non-believers, what would be the actual purpose of torturing billions of people for eternity in burning agony?

Originally posted by whodey
My point here is that I don't always know what is "good". Good is often in the eyes of the beholder. We have an internal compass that helps us, but it can falter.

It can falter for everyone and anyone, including those who fear a God figure. What do you make of the three simple principles of morality that I laid out? Life is complicated, of course, but how about Don't harm ~ Don't deceive ~ Don't coerce as a basis? In harness with compassion, empathy, generosity and other capacities, is not this helpful in striving for "good" and to be "good"?

Originally posted by FMF
An answer to the question I put to you would be of more interest to me.

Here's another twin-barrelled one that's along the same lines: [1] what actual deterrent effect and behaviour modification effect do you think the threat of being tortured for eternity in burning agony has on people who don't subscribe to the belief system surrounding this supposed punish ...[text shortened]... what would be the actual purpose of torturing billions of people for eternity in burning agony?

It is all about perspective.

If sin is what bring about torture and pain and death, should it not be destroyed?

If sin is destroyed, where does that leave the sinner? Jesus endured torture for our sakes in order that we might escape.

Again, I'm sure Adam thought it no big deal to partake of the "fruit". But as we can plainly see today, it was a huge mistake. Those that persist will have to be dealt with. God will not force them to repent.

Originally posted by FMF
It can falter for everyone and anyone, including those who fear a God figure. What do you make of the three simple principles of morality that I laid out? Life is complicated, of course, but how about Don't harm ~ Don't deceive ~ Don't coerce as a basis? In harness with compassion, empathy, generosity and other capacities, is not this helpful in striving for "good" and to be "good"?

You mean like Jesus? Was he a good example of what is "good"?

Originally posted by FMF
If it's only Hebrew mythology and the literature that set its offshoot in motion that is stopping you from acting immorally then that is a bit arbitrary "too" if you ask me; but if that's the only way you can lead a morally sound life [assuming that you do] then I suppose ... ~ well, yes, you go for it ~ whatever it takes. So I acknowledge your need for and depe ...[text shortened]... rally sound lives even though they don't feel the "fear of God" that you just so happen to feel?

So according to you, if the herd says X is moral, it is moral because that
what all the people around you says is moral. Sort of a sliding scale in
my opinion that can never be wrong, no matter who or what get hurt, or
how it goes against what would or could be thought of as wrong at some
other place or time. Yea, I'd say I'd reject a never changing God's
standards too if I were you, you'd be condemned no doubt about it.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
So according to you, if the herd says X is moral, it is moral because that
what all the people around you says is moral. Sort of a sliding scale in
my opinion that can never be wrong, no matter who or what get hurt, or
how it goes against what would or could be thought of as wrong at some
other place or time. Yea, I'd say I'd reject a never changing God's
standards too if I were you, you'd be condemned no doubt about it.
Kelly

It reminds me of the mob sending men like Socrates to his death.

This is why his pupil, Plato, despised democracy.

Originally posted by KellyJay
So according to you, if the herd says X is moral, it is moral because that
what all the people around you says is moral. Sort of a sliding scale in
my opinion that can never be wrong, no matter who or what get hurt, or
how it goes against what would or could be thought of as wrong at some
other place or time. Yea, I'd say I'd reject a never changing God's
standards too if I were you, you'd be condemned no doubt about it.
Kelly

Are you claiming the Biblical Gods standards have never changed?

Originally posted by FMF
Nothing you say or do will change the fact that you subscribe to it even with the full knowledge of how despicable and ghastly the eternal torture ideology is. I don't need you to agree with my view of how depraved your beliefs are when it comes to the supposed "afterlife" for me to call it how I see it.

Your arrogance is despicable and shows the depth of your depravity. You will be humbled in due time.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Are you claiming the Biblical Gods standards have never changed?

They changed a couple of times, each time with a major reason and
display from God making it clear that was what He was doing.
Kelly

Originally posted by whodey
That's why placing your faith in a God who is good and is all knowing is vital. .... He provided us with a sense of right and wrong,

When will you nutters stop parading this piece of nonsense?

You honestly think people don't have a sense of right and wrong without a god?

Try and give an example.

Originally posted by whodey
You mean like Jesus? Was he a good example of what is "good"?

It's moot. I don't believe most of the claims that Christians make about Jesus. There are some moral guidelines associated with him that make sense. But all the supernatural elements simply strike me as nonsense.

Originally posted by iChopWoodForFree
Your arrogance is despicable and shows the depth of your depravity. You will be humbled in due time.

But the question here is, if your threat/warning that I "will be humbled in due time" is not credible, what is its deterrent effect [on me or anyone else] regarding what you see as being my arrogant and depraved actions?