The Gap Theory

Originally posted by sonship

You are mistaken to think that Satan is allowed to return before the thrown of God in Heaven after the war that drove Satan and his angels out of Heaven.

[b]Job 1:1 and Job 2:1 say he appeared before God.

This is after he was dealt the judgments of Isaiah 14:12 -

[quote]"How you have fallen from heaven O Dayst ...[text shortened]... obscuring his past and present tactics is more of his tricks to postpone his ultimate execution.

You don't seem to understand that Job is a Poetry and Wisdom book and Isaiah is one of the Prophecy books of the Old Testament. Job is poetry mainly concerned with past events while Isaiah is prophecy mainly concerned with future events.

So to say that what happened in Job is after what is predicted in Isaiah shows a misuderstanding of scripture.

Everyone should know that the Book of Revelation is a Prophecy book in the New Testament and Revelation 12:8-12 is yet to occur. Although Christ told his followers that He had been given all authority in heaven and on Earth, it is clear from His instructions to them that much work was yet to be done. I believed the final realization of "the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ" in Heaven did not occur as soon as He ascended to the right hand of the Father is proven by other scriptures, including the following:

So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

(Mark 16:19 NASB)

But to which of the angels has He ever said, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET "?

(Hebrews 1:13 NASB}

This obviously refers to the war in Heaven that is still to take place to make Satan and His angels His footstool by throwing these enemies down to earth.

HalleluYaH !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by sonship
The essence of the objection RJHinds raises is that [b]Revelation 12 is that fulfillment of the utterances of Isaiah and Ezekiel about the anointed cherub or the Daystar being cast down.

There are worse things that a Christian could be mistaken about.
It is good to see Satan is put down, defeated, cast down. I would not ever discourage any believe ...[text shortened]... ome overcoming ones to subjectively co-partake of this victory over the accuser of the brethren.[/b]

However, the subjection "of all things under His feet" has not yet been fulfilled or else we would not have to deal with evil and the death of our loved ones. No one would believe in EVILUTION and other deceptions of the Devil if that had already occurred. 😏

Originally posted by RJHinds
However, the subjection "of all things under His feet" has not yet been fulfilled or else we would not have to deal with evil and the death of our loved ones. No one would believe in EVILUTION and other deceptions of the Devil if that had already occurred. 😏

Dude we evolved. Deal with it.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Dude we evolved. Deal with it.

I am dealing with it.

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

(1 Timothy 4:1-2 NIV)

Originally posted by RJHinds
I am dealing with it.

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

(1 Timothy 4:1-2 NIV)

What you are really doing is ignoring our natural heritage of evolution. That makes you an anachronism going back 4000 years when people didn't have the sense to come in out of the rain. You would fit well with those folks.

Originally posted by RJHinds

However, the subjection "of all things under His feet" has not yet been fulfilled or else we would not have to deal with evil and the death of our loved ones. No one would believe in EVILUTION and other deceptions of the Devil if that had already occurred.

Your reply reminds me of what Martha told Jesus in John 11. She postponed the resurrection to the end times. Jesus had to remind her that "the resurrection and the life" was Himself standing with her at present.

"Jesus said to her, Your brother will rise again. Martha said to Him, I know that he will rise again in the resurrection in the last day.

Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes into Me even if he should die, shall live; And every one who believes into shall by no means die forever. Do you believe this?" (John 11:23-26)

You see Martha's concept was not wrong. It was just limited and postponing Christ's ministry off to the future. Oh she was very knowledgeable - "I know ... I know ...". She knew the Hebbre Bible well and knew that there would be a resurrection in the last day, maybe according to the book of Daniel. Anyway, she knew something.

But she knew it only in a way of postponing Christ's power off to the future. Jesus had to tell her that, with her, in the moment WAS the resurrection and the life because He was there.

" ... I know that he will rise again in the resurrection in the last day.

Jesus said to her, I AM the resurrection and the life ..."

I wrote that Jesus is the head over all things "to the church" which means a kind of transmission of His ministry down into the church. And you in a very dutiful way which is not entirely wrong postpone that Headship, protesting -

"But not everything is under His headship now or else these Evolutionists would not be here."

What will bring in the kingdom is the overcoming believers who grasp that He is transmitting the Headship into His Body today. His administration over all things is being conveyed through Him dispensing Himself INTO His people.

A critical mass of such overcoming yet normal experiences of Christ IS causing and will cause the driving down of Satan from his accusing activity.

That is what Paul is praying for in the Ephesian chapter. That is that the eyes of the churching people would be enlightened to SEE what power is operating in them which also operated in the resurrection and ascension of Christ.

"Therefore I also, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which is among you and your love to all the saints, Do not cease giving thanks for you making mention of you in my prayers."

That is verses 15 and 16. The next 7 verses (17 through 23) show the CONTENT of the apostle's prayer for us. Beginning with our spiritual eyes being unveiled to see the revelation of all that Christ is and has done -

"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of Him, That the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of His calling, ...

Paul prayed that we would SEE as he SAW. Seeing is the beginning. And there is a battle over the minds and hearts of Christians (let alone unbelievers) .... a battle that OUR heart's eyes would be opened to see Christ's Headship and overcoming power that operated in Him and also in us.

Paul's petition to the Father continues -

" ... that you may know the hope of His calling, and what are the riches of His inheritance in the saints, And what is the surpassing greatness of His power TOWARD US ... who believe, according to the operation of the might of His strength,

Which He caused to operate in Christ in raising Him from the dead and seating Him at His right hand in the heavenlies."

So you are not wrong in a fundamentalist sense to dutifully say -

However, the subjection "of all things under His feet" has not yet been fulfilled or else we would not have to deal with evil and the death of our loved ones. No one would believe in EVILUTION and other deceptions of the Devil if that had already occurred.

Again, I say this is not wrong. But it is purely objective. And the rapture of the overcoming remnant who realize this transmission of Christ TOWARD us and TO the church is being realized in a recovery of the Lord.

This is more important than 1,000 years or 1,000,000 years or more involving the beginning of the old creation. This revelation Paul petitioned the Father for, concerns the emergence of believers understanding that they are in the "new creation" of being mingled and united with Christ.

Martha's opinionated way of mentioning the FUTURE resurrection called for Christ to open her eyes and heart to He Himself being the resurrection and the life standing before her.

And Christ as the Head over all things to the church is a truth that Christians need to come together in city after city to see, is not postponed entirely. But it is a key to overcoming in the here and now to faciitate Satan's defeat and Christ's bringing the kingdom.

"And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ,

for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death." (Rev. 12:10-11)

I don't care about winning arguments today.
I am concerned just with "the word of their testimony" for overcoming. We have to stand upon the fact that Christ is the head over all things TO the church which is His Body, the fullness of the One who fills all in all.

Originally posted by sonhouse
What you are really doing is ignoring our natural heritage of evolution. That makes you an anachronism going back 4000 years when people didn't have the sense to come in out of the rain. You would fit well with those folks.

I say that Noah and his sons were more intelligent back then than you are today. If you were told to build a big boat to save your family and every kind of animal that breathe air from a year long worldwide flood, I am sure you couldn't do it. 😏

Originally posted by sonship

However, the subjection "of all things under His feet" has not yet been fulfilled or else we would not have to deal with evil and the death of our loved ones. No one would believe in EVILUTION and other deceptions of the Devil if that had already occurred.

Your reply reminds me of what Martha told Jesus in [b]John 11. She postponed t ...[text shortened]... d over all things TO the church which is His Body, the fullness of the One who fills all in all.[/b]

You seem to overlook that in John 11:23-26 Jesus says "will" and "shall" meaning it was to happen in the future. The fact that Jesus is the ressurrection and the life and the truth and the way does not mean that these things He spoke of have already happened.

Jesus was just informing her that He was the one she was looking forward to that would perform the resurrection of the dead in the future. Your problem seems to be misapplying texts to things today that are meant for the future even though they may be partly in the process of being fulfilled.

To be overcomers we are expected to endure in our faith to the end.

But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

(Matthew 24:13 NKJV)

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

(1 John 3:2-3 NKJV)

For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:9-13 NKJV)

Originally posted by RJHinds

You seem to overlook that in John 11:23-26 Jesus says "will" and "shall" meaning it was to happen in the future.

There is a time to see not only "I will" but "I am".
We need more of the "I AM" to prepare us for the "I will".

Do you think that to be co-rulers with Christ in His coming kingdom there is no need to see TODAY that He reigns ?

Psalm 119:133 says - "Establish my footsteps in Your word, And do not let any iniquity have dominion over me."

So instead of being defeated in the flesh, the old man, and the iniquity of the fallen nature there is the need that we be "more than conquerors" and overcome. This is absolutely training and preparation.

I do not overlook the future tense. I emphasize the importance of what Christ is here and now today.

The fact the Jesus is the ressurrection and the life and the truth and the way does not mean that these things He spoke of have already happened.

This is too objective and devoid from applying Christ today as salvation. You are quoting somewhat from John 14:6

"Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me."

Is there no need to come to the Father today?
I mean TODAY.

We need to come to the Father through Christ today and everyday.
If we take that passage as only applicable to some day in the future, I am sure that we are missing very much of its benefit for today.

Jesus was just informing her that He was the one she was looking forward to that would perform the resurrection of the dead in the future.

That future was on that day. "Your brother will rise again" (v.23) pertained to why Jesus was there. It did not pertain to what He would do at the last day at the end of the age. If Martha didn't know this, we the readers and the disciples know it because He went there to be to all of them "the resurrection and the life".

So He told them - "... Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going that I may wake him out of sleep." (v.11)

When Martha postponed the resurrection off to the end of the age, Jesus adjusted her understanding to know that because He was there, the resurrection and the divine life were there. He IS the resurrection.

Your problem seems to be misapplying texts to things today that are meant for the future even though they may be partly in the process of being fulfilled.

The problem iI am avoiding is that problem you display of failing to see the vital importance of applying what Christ is in our overcoming in the church age. I know that you have that problem because you imagine that the manchild in Revelation 12 is just Jesus. You argue that the manchild is not the believers within whom Jesus has been dispensed.

But understanding that Jesus dispenses what He is into His people means that those who overcome are indeed the corporate "THEY" and the "THEM" in verses 11. The victory proclamation is utterly connected to the catching up of the manchild -

"And I head a loud voice in heaven saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ ...." [/quote]

"NOW .... has come" is proclaimed. You do not have the proclamation that it will come but NOW it has come.

Yet we still see chapters 13, 14, 15, 16 ... etc. We were speaking of the expulsion of Satan from accusing the brothers before God day and night. When it is terminated coincides with when the overcomers appropriate in their experience the victory of Christ. They see that He the mighty power of Christ's resurrection and ascension are TOWARD them and are transmitted down TO the church His Body.

"THEY" overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb - "they" is the manchild.

'THEY overcame by the word of "THEIR" testimony. That is the testimony of the manchild - the remnant of overcomers.

'They" loved not their soul-life - also refers to the manchild.

So the driving down of Satan the dragon in Revelation 12 with 1,260 days left is not the same as the expulsion of him in Ezekiel 28:16. You are mixing up the two matters improperly and superficially.

Why are you doing this? It is because of some shortsighted understandings of the Scripture, partially right interpretations taken beyond their scope and mixed with the improper.

It is good at least that you see that God and Christ are the cause of every and any defeat of Satan. It is better to see that the latter driving down of Satan is because God and Christ as the Divine "We" have dispensed the Triune God INTO His people. And in doing so He secures some overcoming ones.

His being made head over all things TO the church is transmitted into the church, into a critical mass of overcomers. And the accuser has no more ground to accuse because of their victory in God's salvation.

Don't mix up the first explusion of Satan in ancient times with the latter that is brought about because God dispenses Himself with His victory INTO His people.

To be overcomers we are expected to endure in our faith to the end.

But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

(Matthew 24:13 NKJV)

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

This is a good reference. And there are other aspects to overcoming as well. The seven letters to the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3 touch very much OTHER aspects of overcoming.

It is important to realize that God intends even from the very creation of man, that His enemy would be crushed under the feet of those human beings united and mingled with God.

"Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you." (Romans 16:20)

What is really at issue in this thread is not whether billions of years have passed or thousands have passed. What is much more important is that from the creation of man, God intended to deal with His ancient enemy, the rebellious Daystar, the revolting Lucifer, the insubordinate Anointed Cherub, through MAN. That is Man in coordination and cooperation with the Triune God.

Adam was ordained to express Gods image and exercise God's dominion. And he was told to GUARD the garden. The serpent should have never been able to get as far as lying to Eve had Adam guarded according to his mandate.

If Eve had informed Adam that a creature was there slandering their Creator and tempting them to disobey Him, luring them into DEATH, Adam should have made certain that DEATH came to that being.

But the God of peace will soon crush Satan under the feet of the overcoming saints built up as the victorious church.

Originally posted by sonship

You seem to overlook that in John 11:23-26 Jesus says "will" and "shall" meaning it was to happen in the future.

There is a time to see not only "I will" but [b]"I am".
We need more of the "I AM" to prepare us for the "I will".

Do you think that to be co-rulers with Christ in His coming kingdom there is no need to ...[text shortened]... will soon crush Satan under the feet of the overcoming saints built up as the victorious church.[/b]

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

(John 8:58 KJV)

Jesus presents Himself as being in the past, present, and future. But we are only in the present. Even though we can think about the past and the future, we are restricted to the present, the here and now.

You have free will to believe what you want. I believe you are just too indoctrinated by the false teachigs of Witness Lee to see certain scriptures reasonably. So perhaps we should just agree to disagree. That is about all I can do with the JWs too. Good luck in your studies.

Originally posted by RJHinds

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

(John 8:58 KJV)

Jesus presents Himself as being in the past, present, and future. But we are only in the present. Even though we can think about the past and the future, we are restricted to the present, the here and now.

You have free will to believe what ...[text shortened]... just agree to disagree. That is about all I can do with the JWs too. Good luck in your studies.

I am starting a challenge thread and you are going to indentify the false teaching.

If you cannot then it is only one more disappointing display of you not being trustworthy.

Copied from The Glorious Church by Watchman Nee from The Collected Works of Watchman Nee Volume 77

God's purpose is to gain a group of people who are like His Son. When we read Romans 8:29 we find God's purpose: "Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." God desires to have many sons, and God desires all these sons to be like that one Son of His. Then His Son will no more be the only Begotten, but the Firstborn among many brethren. God's desire is to gain such a group of people. If we see this, we will realize the preciousness of man, and we will rejoice whenever man is mentioned. How God values man! Even He Himself became a man! God's plan is to gain man. When man is gained by God, God's plan is accomplished.

It is by man that God's plan is fulfilled, and through man His own need is met. What, then, does God require from the man whom He created? It is that man should rule. When God created man, He did not predestine man to fall. Man's fall is in chapter three of Genesis, not chapter one. In God's plan to create man, He did not predestine man to sin, neither did He foreordain redemption. We are not minimizing the importance of redemption, but only saying that redemption was not foreordained by God. If it were, then man would have to sin. God did not foreordain this. In God's plan to create man, man was ordained to rule. This is revealed to us in Genesis 1:26. Here God unveils to us His desire and tells us the secret of His plan. "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." This is God's purpose in creating man.

Perhaps some may ask why God has such a purpose. It is because an angel of light rebelled against God before man's creation and became the devil: Satan sinned and fell; the Daystar became the enemy of God (Isa. 14:12-15). God, therefore, withdrew His authority from the enemy and put it, instead, into the hand of man. The reason God created man is that man may rule in the place of Satan. What abounding grace we see in God's creation of man!

Not only does God desire that man should rule, but He marks out a specific area for man to rule. We see this in Genesis 1:26: "Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth..." "All the earth" is the domain of man's rule. Not only did God give man dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, and the cattle, but He further required that man should rule over "all the earth." The area where God desired man to rule is the earth. Man is especially related to the earth. Not only in His plan to create man was God's attention focused upon the earth, but after God made man, He clearly told him that he was to rule over the earth. Verses 27 and 28 say, "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it..." What God emphasized here is that man should "replenish the earth" and "subdue it"; it is of secondary importance that man should have dominion over the fish of the sea, the fowl of the air, and every living thing on the earth. Man's dominion over these other things is an accessory; the main subject is the earth.

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n [My Bolding]

Originally posted by sonship
I am starting a challenge thread and you are going to indentify the false teaching.

If you cannot then it is only one more disappointing display of you not being trustworthy.

We have already went over all that. Let's just agree to disagree and live in peace with one another. Doesn't that seem the civil thing to do in today's world?

Originally posted by RJHinds
We have already went over all that. Let's just agree to disagree and live in peace with one another. Doesn't that seem the civil thing to do in today's world?

No we are going to agree that you agree with me as far as you being unable to identify the "false teachings" of Witness Lee.

You are not going to make a cowardly accusation and run away with the excuse of civility and peace in the world.

If you cannot identify the false teachings of Witness Lee then you should agree with me that you have to retract your false allegation.

Originally posted by sonship
No we are going to agree that you agree with me as far as you being unable to identify the "false teachings" of Witness Lee.

You are not going to make a cowardly accusation and run away with the excuse of civility and peace in the world.

If you cannot identify the false teachings of Witness Lee then you should agree with me that you have to retract your false allegation.

I agree