The Godhead (Trinity)

Originally posted by RJHinds
Wrong!

This is from your Watchtower bible translation:

[b]But he said to the woman: “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

(Luke 7:50 NWT)

NEW WORLD TRANSLATION OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES (2013 REVISION) On-Line

http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/

Jesus did not wait for her to die and be resurrected to make the judgment th ...[text shortened]... it right then, just like He did to the thief that was on the cross being crucified next to Him.[/b]

No he didn't save her as you are thinking. Look at Matthew and Lukes account of this event and what Jesus was saying:

Matthew 9:22
22 Jesus turned around and, noticing her, said: “Take courage, daughter! Your faith has made you well.” And from that hour the woman was made well.
Luke 8:48
48 But he said to her: “Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace.”

Jesus was speaking of her faith in him and what he did for her concerning her health. This action saved her life then as she had this health issue.

And again your seeing things that are not written and said. Jesus did not tell the man next to him he was saved. The word "saved" is not there.
He was telling the thief that he would be resurrected to the paradise, on the earth in the future. He did not say he would be resurrected to heaven.

Originally posted by galveston75
The holy spirit is nothing more then God's way to have things done or to be accomplished.
Sometime...[text shortened]...terms as relating to God’s spirit, and this is borne out by a consideration of the Scriptures." It book....

How do you read this piece of scripture?
Acts 5:3-5
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.

The holy spirit is nothing more then God's way to have things done or to be accomplished.
Sometimes he has used angels, or his son Jesus to make things happen. When they are not used it is Jehovah himself doing an action with his force or spirit.

Do you believe Peter to be talking about the Holy Spirit and God in this case as one in the same? All controversy aside, this verse suggests the the Holy Spirit is God, or a part of the Godhead, Trinity if you will. Do you not see it the same way? I know that certain 'words' may not appear in the bible, but does that negate what a thing is?


New American Standard Bible (NASB)
John 1:1
The Deity of Jesus Christ

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The word became flesh and dwelt among us.

I understand that JW might have a hard time with these verses, but they are there none the less. I am not wanting an argument, just trying to understand how you read these. Your thoughts are appreciated, thx.

Originally posted by yoctobyte
How do you read this piece of scripture?
Acts 5:3-5
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you hav ...[text shortened]... an argument, just trying to understand how you read these. Your thoughts are appreciated, thx.

No problem....

They are the same because the spirit is simply God will. This holy spirit is not like Jesus or an angel. It does not think or do anything on it's own. It is a non living spirit that can be independent of God. It has never been given a name as Jesus has.
Jesus on the other hand is a creation, an angel or God's first born of all the angels and is independent of God even though he is in "complete" agreement on all things with his Father Jehovah. Hence the bible says he is an "exact image" of his Father.
The devil is an angel and is independent of God but decided to go against God and rebel.
Jesus is and independent angel also but not for one second has ever thought of not doing his Fathers will.
When Jesus was on earth and being tempted by satan he refused the temptations. But....he could have decided to accept them and satan new that and that is why he tried to temp him.
This is also why God said to Jesus "after he was resurrected" that he was "approved" to recieve all that God had in store for him. He never recieved that spoken statement from his Father before he proved to the death his faithfulness to him because Jesus "could" have faultered.

And Gen 1:1 in the correct language should say he was "a" God. Compared to mankind he is a god or godlike. But the Bible never refers to Jesus as "Almighty God" as is said about his Father Jehovah ever.

So no we do not have any problems with these scriptures...

Originally posted by galveston75
No he didn't save her as you are thinking. Look at Matthew and Lukes account of this event and what Jesus was saying:

Matthew 9:22
22 Jesus turned around and, noticing her, said: “Take courage, daughter! Your faith has made you well.” And from that hour the woman was made well.
Luke 8:48
48 But he said to her: “Daughter, your faith has made you we ...[text shortened]... d to the paradise, on the earth in the future. He did not say he would be resurrected to heaven.

I am not referring to the woman with a health issue from Matthew 9:22 and Luke 8:48. I am referring to a different woman in Luke 7:50 with no health issues.

In your referencs, it does say the woman in Luke 8:48 was immediately healed upon touching His garment, because the Greek word for healed is used. But Jesus also says her faith has saved her. Some interpreters translate the Greek word as "made well" instead of saved. However the majority interpretation in all other places of that word is "saved". And so you might interpret Jesus as saying to her that she only had enough faith to make her well at that time, but not enough to be saved for eternity, even though I doubt Jesus meant that. I think she was both healed and saved for eternity. However, I am not referring to that woman.

I am referring to the woman in the the previous chapter of Luke. There is nothing said about her having any health issues. It said she had enough faith that Jesus forgave all her sins. Jesus told her that she was saved because of her faith. It had nothing to do with being made well from some unknown health issue.

You are the one that is adding to scripture and seeing things that are not there, not me. Jesus said nothing about the paradise being on earth, and even if He meant that, isn't that what you JWs call "being saved"?

Originally posted by RJHinds
I am not referring to the woman with a health issue from Matthew 9:22 and Luke 8:48. I am referring to a different woman in Luke 7:50 with no health issues.

In your referencs, it does say the woman in Luke 8:48 was immediately healed upon touching His garment, because the Greek word for healed is used. But Jesus also says her faith has saved her. Some ...[text shortened]... paradise being on earth, and even if He meant that, isn't that what you JWs call "being saved"?

All women who bear children are saved, by your interpretation.

1 Tim 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing...

Maybe you should investigate what the word 'saved' means.
It does not necessarily mean attain eternal life.

Originally posted by Rajk999
All women who bear children are saved, by your interpretation.

1 Tim 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing...

Maybe you should investigate what the word 'saved' means.
It does not necessarily mean attain eternal life.

You misunderstood me. I did not say that Greek word had to mean one would be given eternal life. Some versions translate the word to mean "delivered" or "preserved" in the verse you quoted. Of couse, the meaning of most words can have different meanings depending on the context. So why do you only quote part of a verse and not look at it in total context. Here it is below:

1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; 9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

(1 Timothy 2 NKJV)

Notice it says == For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

One could substitue "delivered" or "preserved" for saved and it really doesn't matter.

Now let us look at the complete verse you quoted.

Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

Notice it has an if condition there for a woman to be saved. Paul is NOT saying ALL women will be saved in childbearing. The women saved are the ones that continue in faith, and holiness, with self-control. Faith is first and foremost.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I am not referring to the woman with a health issue from Matthew 9:22 and Luke 8:48. I am referring to a different woman in Luke 7:50 with no health issues.

In your referencs, it does say the woman in Luke 8:48 was immediately healed upon touching His garment, because the Greek word for healed is used. But Jesus also says her faith has saved her. Some ...[text shortened]... paradise being on earth, and even if He meant that, isn't that what you JWs call "being saved"?

So with this woman being saved as you claim, what exactly did that mean for her, then and now?

And please show by scripture your answer.....

Originally posted by galveston75
No problem....

They are the same because the spirit is simply God will. This holy spirit is not like Jesus or an angel. It does not think or do anything on it's own. It is a non living spirit that can be independent of God. It has never been given a name as Jesus has.
Jesus on the other hand is a creation, an angel or God's first born of all the an ...[text shortened]... id about his Father Jehovah ever.

So no we do not have any problems with these scriptures...

"It is a non living spirit" So if it is non-living then what can this spirit do? Nothing .......Kinda like if an airplane crashes on the border between Canada and the United States ......where do you bury the survivors ? In Canada or The United states ?? uuuugggghhhhh ?? 😉 LOL that's a joke you don't bury survivors. What the heck is a non-living spirit though ? Guarantee that the spirit of God lives and it can be proven in scripture.

Manny

Originally posted by galveston75
So with this woman being saved as you claim, what exactly did that mean for her, then and now?

And please show by scripture your answer.....

First Jesus told the woman her sins were forgiven. What does this mean according to the Holy Bible?


"Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not count against him."

(Psalm 32:1-2 NIV)


In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 1:7-14 NKJV)

Then Jesus tells the woman that her faith has saved her. What does that mean according to the Holy Bible?


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

(Ephesians 2:8-9 NKJV)

This woman had no illness to be healed of yet Jesus forgave her sins and saved her because of her faith. So obviously this forgiving of sin and salvation refers to the redemption of the body and soul for the resurrection to eternal life.

Originally posted by RJHinds
.. Notice it has an [b]if condition there for a woman to be saved. Paul is NOT saying ALL women will be saved in childbearing. The women saved are the ones that continue in faith, and holiness, with self-control. Faith is first and foremost.[/b]

Maybe your definition of faith is different to what Christ intended. For you faith is proclaiming with your mouth that you believe in Christ. Here is a passage with some interesting statements [note that there is an important IF in there as well :

As he spake these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
(John 8:30-32 KJV)


- Christ is here speaking to believers, those who believed on him ie they are all faithful by typical definition of faith.
- Christ is clarifying what they need to do to become disciples of Him and that is to follow His commandments.
- Finally if they follow Christ they will be free, as in free from sin.
- Being free from sin is what gives eternal life with Christ.

The fact that people have a hard time keeping themselves free from sin does not in any way reduce the importance of what Christ is saying.

Many Christians have now tried to claim the opposite of what Christ said .. that is to try to live righteously and keep away from sin means that you are trying to work to attain eternal life and that is denying Christ. I have never come across such an evil and crooked teaching such as that. You [people] must really be insane to believe such a doctrine.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Maybe your definition of faith is different to what Christ intended. For you faith is proclaiming with your mouth that you believe in Christ. Here is a passage with some interesting statements [note that there is an important IF in there as well :

[i]As he spake these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye ...[text shortened]... nd crooked teaching such as that. You [people] must really be insane to believe such a doctrine.

But what about we Gentiles, who are sinners? This is what the apostle Paul says to that ...

We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.

(Galatians 2:15-16, 21 NKJV)

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

(Ephesians 2:8-9 NKJV)

Originally posted by menace71
"It is a non living spirit" So if it is non-living then what can this spirit do? Nothing .......Kinda like if an airplane crashes on the border between Canada and the United States ......where do you bury the survivors ? In Canada or The United states ?? uuuugggghhhhh ?? 😉 LOL that's a joke you don't bury survivors. What the heck is a non-living spirit though ? Guarantee that the spirit of God lives and it can be proven in scripture.

Manny

Well I should have said a non living force or power of God. Anyway I don't get the joke......Lol. Old as the hills Manny. 🙂

And yes the bible does describe the spirit if God as being alive and it is because this is how Jehovah describes his power or force as he is alive. He used it to create all that we see throughout the entire universe and even the life here on earth, just as a carpenter would use a saw to cut a piece of wood
We can also see Jehovah's personailty by what his spirit or force does.
Remember we can never see Jehovah which the Bible says very clearly. But we can understand him a little better by the results of his power or force in action and by Jehovah describing his spirit in lifelike or human ways we can understand Jehovah a little more.
Also this is his way of channeling or dispences his directions to his congregations and teaches us many things and also protects his people by warnings.

Just as a wire despences electricity to a motor to make a fan move, this is the way God gets his messages to us.

Originally posted by galveston75
Well I should have said a non living force or power of God. Anyway I don't get the joke......Lol. Old as the hills Manny. 🙂

And yes the bible does describe the spirit if God as being alive and it is because this is how Jehovah describes his power or force as he is alive. He used it to create all that we see throughout the entire universe and even t ...[text shortened]... espences electricity to a motor to make a fan move, this is the way God gets his messages to us.

So in essence your saying God's spirit is God's electricity? A force ? Not a living being?


Manny

Originally posted by menace71
So in essence your saying God's spirit is God's electricity? A force ? Not a living being?


Manny

Pretty much....No where in the Bible is the holy spirit ever said to be an entity of it's own, think on it's own, make decisions on it's own, etc, that Jehovah and Jesus do.
The bible never says the holy spirit was a creation, but it does say this about Jesus, the 1st born.


"What is the holy spirit?

A comparison of Bible texts that refer to the holy spirit shows that it is spoken of as ‘filling’ people; they can be ‘baptized’ with it; and they can be “anointed” with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38) None of these expressions would be appropriate if the holy spirit were a person.

Jesus also referred to the holy spirit as a “helper” (Greek, pa·ra′kle·tos), and he said that this helper would “teach,” “bear witness,” “speak,” and ‘hear.’ (John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:13) It is not unusual in the Scriptures for something to be personified. For example, wisdom is said to have “children.” (Luke 7:35) Sin and death are spoken of as being kings. (Rom. 5:14, 21) While some texts say that the spirit “spoke,” other passages make clear that this was done through angels or humans. (Acts 4:24, 25; 28:25; Matt. 10:19, 20; compare Acts 20:23 with Ac 21:10, 11.) At 1 John 5:6-8, not only the spirit but also “the water and the blood” are said to ‘bear witness.’ So, none of the expressions found in these texts in themselves prove that the holy spirit is a person.

The correct identification of the holy spirit "must fit all the scriptures" that refer to that spirit. With this viewpoint, it is logical to conclude that the holy spirit is the active force of God. It is not a person but is a powerful force that God causes to emanate from himself to accomplish his holy will.—Ps. 104:30; 2 Pet. 1:21; Acts 4:31.

Look up the scriptures and think on them a bit????

Originally posted by RJHinds
First Jesus told the woman her sins were forgiven. What does this mean according to the Holy Bible?


[b]"Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not count against him."

(Psalm 32:1-2 NIV)


In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, accor ...[text shortened]... nd salvation refers to the redemption of the body and soul for the resurrection to eternal life.

Uhhh that her sins are forgiven? But he did not say her sins are forgiven after this point and nothing to worry about, but only up to this statement of Jesus.
Once she sinned again and she did just as we all do, she has to do as usual and pray to Jehovah for forgiveness of those sins daily just as Jesus said to do.
If one were no longer required to pray and ask for forgiveness, that would have been said and explined by Jesus, but no such statemnts are made in the Bible.

The issue here for you is you don't know who being saved really applies to and when it applies to them.