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Originally posted by @thinkofone
In the four gospels the Jews would time and again misunderstand Jesus and draw illogical conclusions based on what He was saying. In this case the reason that they concluded that He was "making Himself equal with God" was because He said that "God was His Father". This is explicitly stated in John 5:18. Today people often refer to God as their Father. Presumably you don't jump to the illogical conclusion that they are " "making [themselves] equal with God" when they do so. How is it that you are blind to what John 5:17,18 explicitly states? You have eyes but cannot see.
What you are saying is that the Apostle John was in need of you going back in time to "help" him really understand what his own people heard, criticized, and objected to in Jesus.
A Jewish man traveling around that quite familiar culture with Jesus for three and one half years couldn't figure out what was going on in the minds of his countrymen at this juncture.
But Jesus answered them, My Father is working until now, and I also am working.
Because of this therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." (John 5:17,18)
I'd rather take John's word for it.
Jesus compared God's working to His own working.
"My Father is working until now, and I am working." (v.17)
Here is a man before them working on the Sabbath Day when God has commanded that the Jews rest. Jesus says that He and His Father have things to do and are still working.
He classes Himself in the same category as God.
In the Old Testament God had many times said that He was a Father to the Israelites. So Jesus, as Jew, just stating as any religious Jew that His Father was God should have been infuriating.
Ie. Malachi 1:6
"A son honors his father, and a servant his lord. Therefore if I am a Father, where is My honor? And if I am the Lord, where is My fear? says Jehovah of hosts to you, O priests who despise My name ..."
The offense of Jesus was accumulative.
He not only broke the Sabbath but on top of that called God His Father saying both God and He had work to do on the seventh day Sabbath when it is said God rested and the Jews better also rest.
He made Himself equal with God.
The Jews could boast that God was their Father based on many passages. But they did not take their actions so seriously that it was a blasphemy to say so.
"For You are our Father, Since Abraham does not know us, And Israel does not acknowledge us. You, Jehovah, are our Father; Our Redeemer from of old is Your name." (Isa. 63:16)
But Jesus was performing miracles. He was doing things which they could not do.
And Jesus was saying this was equal to God His Father working. Jesus took Himself too seriously.
Had Jesus been a typical pitiful and sinning Jew rather than a righteous miracle working one, they might not have been so offended. As it stands the kind of Person He was and the work He was doing, they thought, He was going overboard in blaspheming His relationship to God.
Originally posted by @sonshipWhat you are saying is that the Apostle John was in need of you going back in time to "help" him really understand what his own people heard, criticized, and objected to in Jesus.
[quote] In the four gospels the Jews would time and again misunderstand Jesus and draw illogical conclusions based on what He was saying. In this case the reason that they concluded that He was "making Himself equal with God" was because He said that "God was His Father". This is explicitly stated in John 5:18. Today people often refer to God as their Fathe ...[text shortened]... work He was doing, they thought, He was going overboard in blaspheming His relationship to God.
A Jewish man traveling around that quite familiar culture with Jesus for three and one half years couldn't figure out what was going on in the minds of his countrymen at this juncture.
Where did I say anything like John " couldn't figure out what was going on in the minds of his countrymen"? This is what you do. You create a straw man and then attack that. I've pointed this out to you many times and others have also.
The point was that the Jews who wanted to kill Him were the ones who misunderstood Him and drew an illogical conclusion. It wasn't that John didn't understand the Jews who wanted to kill Him.
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Originally posted by @thinkofoneHe did in a very real sense make Himself equal with God.
[b]What you are saying is that the Apostle John was in need of you going back in time to "help" him really understand what his own people heard, criticized, and objected to in Jesus.
A Jewish man traveling around that quite familiar culture with Jesus for three and one half years couldn't figure out what was going on in the minds of his countrymen at ...[text shortened]... an illogical conclusion. It wasn't that John didn't understand the Jews who wanted to kill Him.
He made His working and the Father's working of co-equal importance.
On other occasions He forgave sins as only God has the authority to forgive sins.
" And Jesus seeing their faith, says to the paralytic, Child, your sins are forgiven!
But there were some of the scribes sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,
Why is this man speaking in this way? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins except one - God? " (Mark 2:5-7)
He offended them.
He also offends you.
Originally posted by @sonship
He did in a very real sense make Himself equal with God.
He made His working and the Father's working of co-equal importance.
On other occasions He forgave sins as only God has the authority to forgive sins.
[b] " And Jesus seeing their faith, says to the paralytic, Child, your sins are forgiven!
But there were some of the scribes sittin ...[text shortened]... e sins except one - God? " (Mark 2:5-7)
He offended them.
He also offends you.[/b]Since you still seem unable to comprehend the point, can you answer the question?
<<Where did I say anything like John " couldn't figure out what was going on in the minds of his countrymen"?>>
You also seem to miss the point that SecondSon's assertion was that Jesus and God are one and the same - which is nonsense. John 5:17-18 does not show anything of the sort. It only shows what the Jews who wanted to kill Him believed - which of course is not the same thing.
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01 May 18
Originally posted by @thinkofone<<SecondSon's assertion was that Jesus and God are one and the same - which is nonsense.>>
Since you still seem unable to comprehend the point, can you answer the question?
<<Where did I say anything like John " couldn't figure out what was going on in the minds of his countrymen"?>>
You also seem to miss the point that SecondSon's assertion was that Jesus and God are one and the same - which is nonsense. John 5:17-18 does not show anyth ...[text shortened]... nly shows what the Jews who wanted to kill Him believed - which of course is not the same thing.
Tell that to the writer of Hebrews and the writers of the Gospels. Heck, tell that to Jesus Christ as well. They’d all be surprised.
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Originally posted by @thinkofone
Since you still seem unable to comprehend the point, can you answer the question?
I comprehend your general attitude.
You know better then the apostles the nature and mission of Christ.
That is why you discard large swaths of the New Testament and substitute your own explanations.
<<Where did I say anything like John " couldn't figure out what was going on in the minds of his countrymen"?>>
Perhaps you didn't say that.
But your overall attitude is that the NT is to a very large percent, a faulty and erroneous commentary on the life and mission of Jesus. To get to the real story folks should listen instead to you.
Why, they were not even in the know about His ministry "while he walked on earth". You and Thomas Jefferson with his miracle-less "New Testament" know more about Jesus Christ.
This is your deception.
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02 May 18
You also seem to miss the point that SecondSon's assertion was that Jesus and God are one and the same - which is nonsense.
It is not nonsense. It is a major theme of the Gospel of John that God came in the flesh as Jesus Christ.
Of course by the New Testament saying that Jesus is God it is NOT saying that He was not a man. He is the mingling of God and man.
But you purport to know better.
John includes Thomas's confession that Jesus was his Lord and his God (John 20:28) .
Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God. (John 20:28)
Jesus did not rebuke his misunderstanding.
Jesus did not correct his misinterpretation.
Jesus did not scold him for regarding Him as his God.
Jesus did not discourage, adjust, clarify, him from such recognition of Him being Lord and God.
Rather Jesus merely said that because Thomas saw, he believed. And those (like me) who have not seen, are blessed in believing that Jesus is indeed the Lord and God.
"Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed." (v.29)
So John 5:17-18 is understood as a negative example of men ascertaining Jesus' self proclamation yet reacting vehemently AGAINST it.
And you are also reacting against it.
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John 5:17-18 does not show anything of the sort.
It shows that Jesus' self proclamation offended them.
They understood the implications of His words and acts and they reacted in opposition against it in unbelief and rejection.
But when the New Testament says that Jesus is God it is not saying that Jesus is not a man. Jesus is God-man.
A few verses down from verses 17 and 18 we read in the same confrontation, verse 23. Jesus is teaching that all may honor the Son EVEN as they honor the Father.
With "EVEN" you should understand "EQUAL"
That is another way of Him making Himself equal with God.
"In order that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." (v.23)
In the same discussion the Father raises the dead, and the Son has it within Himself to raise the dead. So the Son is in that regard equal to the Father.
"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the the Son gives life to whom He wills." (v.21)
In the same discussion the Father has committed all judgment of mankind to the Son. In that way also the Son is equal to God.
"For neither does the Father judge anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son." (v.22)
As the Father has divine eternal life in Himself the Son also has been given to have the same. In this sense too the Son is equal to God the Father.
"For just as the Father has life in Himself, so He gave to the Son to have life in Himself." (v.26)
He not only makes Himself equal with God in a number of senses there, but He also says that God testifies to the fact of His self proclamation and ministry.
"And the Father who sent Me, He has testified concerning Me, You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor have you seen His form, And you do not have His word abiding in you, for Him whom He sent, this One you do not believe." (vs 37,38)
It only shows what the Jews who wanted to kill Him believed - which of course is not the same thing.
It shows that they did not believe that He was equal with God.
It shows that unlike Thomas, they had not believed that Jesus was their Lord and their God.
And you have the identical unbelief. Of course with you it is not at all clear that you believe in God anyway.
03 May 18
Originally posted by @sonshipPerhaps you didn't say that.Since you still seem unable to comprehend the point, can you answer the question?
I comprehend your general attitude.
You know better then the apostles the nature and mission of Christ.
That is why you discard large swaths of the New Testament and substitute your own explanations.
[quote]
<<Where did I say anything like John " c ...[text shortened]... his miracle-less "New Testament" know more about Jesus Christ.
This is your deception.
Not just "perhaps". The fact is that I never said anything like that. Not that the facts make any difference to you. Your core beliefs are built upon ignoring the facts and the telling of half-truths.
But your overall attitude is that the NT is to a very large percent, a faulty and erroneous commentary on the life and mission of Jesus. To get to the real story folks should listen instead to you.
As I've emphasized time and again, "to get to the real story folks should listen instead to" the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.
03 May 18
Originally posted by @sonshipSeems like most Christians seem to understand the concept of Jesus "abiding" in people and do not believe that those people and Jesus are literally one and the same.
You also seem to miss the point that SecondSon's assertion was that Jesus and God are one and the same - which is nonsense.
It is not nonsense. It is a major theme of the Gospel of John that God came in the flesh as Jesus Christ.
Of course by the New Testament saying that Jesus is God it is NOT saying that He was not a man. He is the ...[text shortened]... roclamation yet reacting vehemently AGAINST it.
And you are also reacting against it.
Yet many seem not to be able to understand the concept of God "abiding" in Jesus in a similar manner.
Seems like most Christians seem to understand the concept of being able to "see Jesus" in the works some people do and do not believe that those people and Jesus are literally one and the same.
Yet many seem not to be able to understand the concept of being able to "see God" in the works Jesus did in a similar manner.
Perhaps these concepts can be best understood through the following:
John 14
9Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10“Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11“Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.
Clearly Jesus makes a distinction between Him and God.
Clearly Jesus expects Philip to be able to "see" the Father in the works that He does with the Father abiding / working within Him.
Jesus explains a similar concept here
John 12
44And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45“He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.
Clearly Jesus makes a distinction between Him and God.
Clearly Jesus expects His followers (believers) to be able to "see God" in Him. This is similar in concept to where Jesus expects Philip to "see" the Father in the works that He does with the Father abiding / working within Him.
It's not surprising that Thomas would echo these concepts in uttering the words, "My Lord and my God!".
Thomas is merely echoing the concepts Jesus explained in John 12 and John 14.
It does not mean that Jesus and God are literally one and the same.
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03 May 18
2 edits
John 20:28 means that doubting Thomas finally confessed that Jesus was his Lord and his God.
And Jesus, reminded the one insisting on scientific evidence that He believed Jesus was Lord and God because of what Thomas had seen.
Jesus pronounced that those who have not seen are blessed to believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and God.
Of course all of this is perfectly in line with John's prologue that the Word was with God and the Word WAS God, and that the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. (John 1:1,14)