19 May 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWhat do you see as "rejecting" Christ?
What do you see as "rejecting" Christ? If one comes to repentance and lives a life based in love, compassion, justice, etc., yet doesn't proclaim Jesus as his savior, has he "rejected" Christ? What is Christ if not the embodiment of love, compassion, justice, etc.?
Rejecting Christ means choosing not to believe in Him; rejecting the biblical claim that He was crucified in one's place in propitiation for one's sins, and that three days later He was resurrected from the dead to glory, thereby conquering sin and death for whoever believes in Him.
If one comes to repentance and lives a life based in love, compassion, justice, etc., yet doesn't proclaim Jesus as his savior, has he "rejected" Christ?
Yep. In fact, I would even doubt such a person had fully repented, as repentance is twofold: first there is the turning away from sin, and second there is the turning to God. One cannot turn to God without believing in Jesus Christ and proclaiming Him as savior.
"For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels" (Mark 8:38).
What is Christ if not the embodiment of love, compassion, justice, etc.?
He is all those things, yes, but He is also the Savior, and we are saved by believing in Him as savior.
20 May 07
Originally posted by whiteroseYes. Whether or not they believe in hell as eternal damnation doesn't matter. Ultimately, enlightenment doesn't amount to anything; only Christ's work on the cross is sufficient to cover one's sins and deliver one from sin and death.
What about someone like a devout Buddhist monk? Are they going o burn in hell for not accepting Jesus as their saviour? (not that they would care, of course, as they don't believe in heaven and hell)
20 May 07
Originally posted by whiteroseI find it highly unlikely that the bible would lie about Christ, considering the bible's unequivocal stand for honesty and wholehearted genuineness.
Did jesus make exclusive claims, or is it the bible that makes them? What if jesus simply preached "love thy neighbor", and all that other stuff about having to be a christian was made up to keep people under the influence of the church?
20 May 07
3 edits
Originally posted by epiphinehas[/b]
[b]What do you see as "rejecting" Christ?
Rejecting Christ means choosing not to believe in Him; rejecting the biblical claim that He was crucified in one's place in propitiation for one's sins, and that three days later He was resurrected from the dead to glory, thereby conquering sin and death for whoever believes in Him.
If one comes to r yes, but He is also the Savior, and we are saved by believing in Him as savior.
You seem to take great pride in your sense of exclusivity. Perhaps you'll come to see that love is love, compassion is compassion and justice is justice. Perhaps you'll come to open your heart to all your neighbors.
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Mark 12:30-31
20 May 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne"Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it" (Ephesians 2:9).
You seem to take great pride in your sense of exclusivity. Perhaps you'll come to see that love is love, compassion is compassion and justice is justice. Perhaps you'll come to open your heart to all your neighbors.
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandm ...[text shortened]... self.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Mark 12:30-31[/b]
Tell me, would I be loving my neighbor, if I did not tell him the truth about salvation?
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).
If I told my neighbor that all one has to do is obey God's law and you're in, then I wouldn't be telling the truth.
20 May 07
5 edits
Originally posted by epiphinehasI agree that it's not about "works", but what is in one's heart with respect to the law.
"Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it" (Ephesians 2:9).
Tell me, would I be loving my neighbor, if I did not tell him the truth about salvation?
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that [b]everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life all one has to do is obey God's law and you're in, then I wouldn't be telling the truth.[/b]
Perhaps the point you're missing is that "belief" also has to do with what is in one's heart with respect to the law, not what one declares.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. Romans 2:12-14
20 May 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIn the passage you are quoting (Romans 2:12-14), Paul is talking to Jews about Gentiles--specifically, Gentiles who have received the Holy Spirit, which is only received by those who believe in Him:
Perhaps the point you're missing is that "belief" has to do what is in one's heat, not what one declares.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justifie ...[text shortened]... cording to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. Romans 2:12-14
"Anyone who believes in me may come and drink! For the Scriptures declare, ‘Rivers of living water will flow from his heart.’” (When he said “living water,” he was speaking of the Spirit, who would be given to everyone believing in him)" (John 7:38-39).
In Romans 2, "they show the work of the Law written in their hearts" refers to those who have received the Holy Spirit; the Spirit Who writes the Law of God in their hearts, which Ezekiel 36:26-27 alludes to:
"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."
Furthermore, consider this passage from Hebrews, which clearly says that those who 'have the Law written in their hearts' are those who believe in Jesus Christ:
"Our High Priest (Jesus Christ) offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at God’s right hand. There he waits until his enemies are humbled and made a footstool under his feet. For by that one offering he forever made perfect those who are being made holy. And the Holy Spirit also testifies that this is so. For he says, “This is the new covenant I will make with my people on that day, says the Lord: I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds” (see Jeremiah 31:33). Then he says, “I will never again remember their sins and lawless deeds.” And when sins have been forgiven, there is no need to offer any more sacrifices. And so, dear brothers and sisters, we can boldly enter heaven’s Most Holy Place because of the blood of Jesus. By his death, Jesus opened a new and life-giving way through the curtain into the Most Holy Place. And since we have a great High Priest who rules over God’s house, let us go right into the presence of God with sincere hearts fully trusting him. For our guilty consciences have been sprinkled with Christ’s blood to make us clean, and our bodies have been washed with pure water" (Hebrews 10:12-19).
It is simply wrong to claim that belief in Jesus Christ is not necessary for salvation.
20 May 07
4 edits
Originally posted by epiphinehasThe Holy Spirit has been placed in the hearts of ALL men as has the law been written there. One must overcome the desires of the self to be able to read it.
In the passage you are quoting (Romans 2:12-14), Paul is talking to Jews about Gentiles--specifically, Gentiles who have received the Holy Spirit, which is only received by those who believe in Him:
"Anyone who believes in me may come and drink! For the Scriptures declare, ‘Rivers of living water will flow from his heart.’” (W t is simply wrong to claim that belief in Jesus Christ is not necessary for salvation.
If one give ones heart to love, compassion, justice, etc., is one not a "believer" in what Christ embodies?
You've shown nothing that refutes this. Perhaps you're too transfixed on Christ the "figure" instead of what he represents. Perhaps pride is influencing your interpretation. Perhaps your knowledge of religions other than Christianity is so poor that you can't see how many of them are built on the same foundation. This desire for exclusivity is so senseless and divisive. Do you truly believe that this is what Jesus would want? That he wouldn't be pleased with those who follow the will of the Father.
20 May 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThe Holy Spirit has been placed in the hearts of ALL men as has the law been written there. One must overcome the desires of the self to be able to read it.
The Holy Spirit has been placed in the hearts of ALL men as has the law been written there. One must overcome the desires of the self to be able to read it.
If one give ones heart to love, compassion, justice, etc., is one not a "believer" in what Christ embodies? Perhaps you're too transfixed on Christ the "figure" instead of what he represents.
...[text shortened]... sus would want? That he wouldn't be pleased with those who follow the will of the Father.
Dead wrong. Didn't you notice the passage I just quoted from John? Only those who believe in Jesus Christ receive God's Holy Spirit:
"Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'" Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified" (John 7:38-39).
One must be born again to receive the Holy Spirit, otherwise, contrary to what you claim, men do not have the Holy Spirit:
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:6-8).
"We (believers) speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit’s words to explain spiritual truths. But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means" (1 Corinthians 2:13-14).
Please provide scriptural proof for your claims.
20 May 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneYou've shown nothing that refutes this.
The Holy Spirit has been placed in the hearts of ALL men as has the law been written there. One must overcome the desires of the self to be able to read it.
If one give ones heart to love, compassion, justice, etc., is one not a "believer" in what Christ embodies?
You've shown nothing that refutes this. Perhaps you're too transfixed on Christ the us would want? That he wouldn't be pleased with those who follow the will of the Father.
Yes, I have.
Perhaps you're too transfixed on Christ the "figure" instead of what he represents. Perhaps pride is influencing your interpretation. Perhaps your knowledge of religions other than Christianity is so poor that you can't see how many of them are built on the same foundation. This desire for exclusivity is so senseless and divisive. Do you truly believe that this is what Jesus would want?
"Whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword" (Matthew 10:33-34).
"Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters" (Matthew 12:30).
That he wouldn't be pleased with those who follow the will of the Father.
Only those who have received the Holy Spirit are able to follow the will of the Father. EDIT: see Romans 8.
20 May 07
1 edit
Originally posted by epiphinehasSo long as you consistently hold on to YOUR idea of what constitutes "belief", you'll never be able to see it no matter how much scripture is placed before you.
[b]The Holy Spirit has been placed in the hearts of ALL men as has the law been written there. One must overcome the desires of the self to be able to read it.
Dead wrong. Didn't you notice the passage I just quoted from John? Only those who believe in Jesus Christ receive God's Holy Spirit:
"Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, means" (1 Corinthians 2:13-14).
Please provide scriptural proof for your claims.[/b]
The spirit is there. All one need do is look at young children. It's truly marvelous how it comes out from time to time. But the desires of the flesh (world) dominate most by the time they become adults. If they mature and overcome the flesh, the spirit springs forth.
Once again, none of this is refuted by what you've shown here. Set aside your pride and read what's in your heart and know it is true. Try to use your heart instead of just your mind.
20 May 07
As always, this thread is taking on multiple (good) dimensions.
Sadly, I’ve run out of time, and can’t revisit this for several days.
Calvin had good intentions, theologically. I just think he got it wrong. Calvin went further than even Luther in his attempt to uphold the principle of grace (Luther’s sola gratia) against any kind of “work,” even the “work of faith.”
I read a book a few years ago by Biblical scholar James Barr (it was a borrowed book, and alas, I don’t have a copy, nor remember which one it was). He pointed out that it is inescapable, in Biblical hermeneutics, to decide which themes or principles are of a relatively higher order than others (this is my poor recollection, not his words), such that they serve as a lens through which to understand the others. In terms of exegesis itself, this involves deciding which texts serve as con-text (there is a pun in that hyphen) for others. One should, of course, be able to say why.
I think certain themes stand out, like gems on a jewelers cloth, from the narrative/contextual fabric. Those themes become the lens through which I read the rest. Other people see different themes, and fold mine into the contextual cloth, so to speak. That is, I think, part of the richness of these scriptural texts. That is why people can argue, cogently and in good faith, different positions from them.
Since Epiphenhas and I have argued strenuously, and reached a friendly impasse, on the issue of universal salvation, when I get a chance to get back here, I intend to leave that question aside. I’ll read through the whole thread as it has developed, but try to focus on his original post.
I enjoy testing my thought in argument on here—and even when I argue hard, that does not mean that my position is set in stone. I view this as being as much a learning experience as is research and study.
20 May 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIf they mature and overcome the flesh, the spirit springs forth.
So long as you consistently hold on to YOUR idea of what constitutes "belief", you'll never be able to see it no matter how much scripture is placed before you.
The spirit is there. All one need do is look at young children. It's truly marvelous how it comes out from time to time. But the desires of the flesh (world) dominate most by the time they beco ...[text shortened]... what's in your heart and know it is true. Try to use your heart instead of just your mind.
Wrong.
"All, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God" (Romans 3:9-11).
So long as you consistently hold on to YOUR idea of what constitutes "belief", you'll never be able to see it no matter how much scripture is placed before you.
On the contrary, sir, it is your definition of belief which is in error:
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved" (Romans 10:9-10).
"And I tell you, everyone who acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man also will acknowledge before the angels of God, but the one who denies me before men will be denied before the angels of God" (Luke 12:8-9).
Again, you are not basing your claims in scripture. Give proof for your claim that all men already have the Holy Spirit, and that believing in Jesus Christ is not necessary for salvation (claims which effectively nullilfy the entire NT). You've been merely saying over and over again, 'none of this is refuted by what you've shown here', without giving positive scriptural evidence for your position. Please find some soon, because this is getting old.