The indeterminate elect

Originally posted by epiphinehas
...if you can't publicly, confidently, and unabashedly confess before men that Jesus Christ is Lord, then...you are not a child of God...

What exactly do you mean by this?

Do you believe baptism is mandatory for salvation?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
...what is...found to be in direct conflict with scripture...is to be rejected outright.

Do you believe there are contradictions within the Bible?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
In the passage you are quoting (Romans 2:12-14), Paul is talking to Jews about Gentiles--specifically, Gentiles who have received the Holy Spirit, which is only received by those who believe in Him:
.

Epiphinehas, how do you know that Paul is referring to "specifically, Gentiles who have received the Holy Spirit" ?

Originally posted by wittywonka
What exactly do you mean by this?

Do you believe baptism is mandatory for salvation?

It is possible to be saved without water baptism, but not without the baptism of the Holy Spirit which Jesus brings.

"Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).

Only true believers receive the Holy Spirit; without Whom living a holy life, according to God's will, is impossible.

Originally posted by wittywonka
Do you believe there are contradictions within the Bible?

Yes, there are contradictions in the bible. However, if one claims that Jesus didn't really die on the cross, or that allegiance to Jesus Christ is unnecessary for salvation, for example, such statements are in direct conflict with the biblical account and should be rejected. More often than not the contradictions found in the bible itself allude to a deeper truth which, when grasped, might resolve the contradiction. Otherwise unresolvable contradictions can be attributed to separate and fallible eye-witness accounts, proving at the very least that the bible is clearly not contrived. That's just my two cents.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Epiphinehas, how do you know that Paul is referring to "specifically, Gentiles who have received the Holy Spirit" ?

I don't know that. In fact, upon further study, I believe I was wrong to assume that. I've come to understand that the entire chapter of Romans 7 is an in depth description of the Gentiles referred to in Romans 2:15...

"They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them."

Such conflicting thoughts are described in Romans 7:15-20...

"For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me."

These are clearly not people who have received the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
............."Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5)..

Here we go again 🙂

Christ expands on that in John 6 : 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The words of Christ ie the commandments of Christ - THEY ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE.

You get salvation by DOING the will of Christ.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Here we go again 🙂

Christ expands on that in John 6 : 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The words of Christ ie the commandments of Christ - THEY ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE.

You get salvation by DOING the will of Christ.

You get salvation by DOING the will of Christ.

Yes, but only those having faith do the will of Christ.

EDIT: because only those having faith receive God's Spirit.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Here we go again 🙂

Christ expands on that in John 6 : 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The words of Christ ie the commandments of Christ - THEY ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE.

You get salvation by DOING the will of Christ.

Here we go again 🙂

No, I do agree with you, Rajk. I don't speak emptily when I speak of faith. A better way of putting it would probably be, "faithful righteousness". For those of us able to work, what is required is faithful righteousness, and anything less is due to an empty profession of faith.

If I say to myself, "since I am under grace and not under the law, I will purposefully sin so that grace may abound," then, as Paul says, my condemnation is just. However, if I fall into temptation because of my own weakness, God remains faithful to forgive me according to His own righteousness.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]You get salvation by DOING the will of Christ.

Yes, but only those having faith do the will of Christ.

EDIT: because only those having faith receive God's Spirit.[/b]

Paul does not seem to support that view. There are Gentiles who do the will of Christ 'by nature '..

Romans 2 :15 ..... show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, ...

These are demonstrating their faith by their works, as James recognises ;

James 2 :17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Paul does not seem to support that view. There are Gentiles who do the will of Christ 'by nature '..

Romans 2 :15 ..... show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, ...

These are demonstrating their faith by their works, as James recognises ;

James 2 :17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is ...[text shortened]... ieve, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Paul does not seem to support that view. There are Gentiles who do the will of Christ 'by nature '..

You are contradicting not only yourself but scripture by interpreting Paul's words thus. 'By nature' means 'according to the flesh'. But you just quoted Christ as saying, "the flesh profiteth nothing." If the flesh profiteth nothing, then no one can do the will of Christ 'by nature'. Read Romans 7 and it will give you a better idea of what Paul is really saying about the law and the flesh without the Spirit.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]Here we go again 🙂

No, I do agree with you, Rajk. I don't speak emptily when I speak of faith. A better way of putting it would probably be, "faithful righteousness". For those of us able to work, what is required is faithful righteousness, and anything less is due to an empty profession of faith.

If I say to myself, "since I am under g ...[text shortened]... of my own weakness, God remains faithful to forgive me according to His own righteousness.[/b]

Yes.. I understood you meant that. .. Faith Plus good works.

Sometime ago you said that someone can get salvation by faith only. I get the impression that youmay have revised that view.

My problem is that I am still grappling with some the passages by both Paul and Christ that seem to suggest that although a Gentile may not know of Christ, neither be baptised, that his good works will not go unrewarded on the day of judgment.

Part of the reason why I keep raising this matter (ad nauseam according to you) is that I live among Hindus and their lifestyle, culture and religion have instilled in them patterns of behaviour that are more Christ-like than Christians. They constantly give to the poor, help without asking for help in return, they literally turn the other cheek in a confrontation. They do it all becuase their religion tells them that its the only way to reincarnate into a better life.

I find it difficult to believe that Christ will condemn these people who basically suffer all their lives in poverty trying to do good works, but welcome in to the kingdom one that simply professed with his mouth only, that he believes. It makes no sense and is contrary to what Christ said.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]Paul does not seem to support that view. There are Gentiles who do the will of Christ 'by nature '..

You are contradicting not only yourself but scripture by interpreting Paul's words thus. 'By nature' means 'according to the flesh'. But you just quoted Christ as saying, "the flesh profiteth nothing." If the flesh profiteth nothing, then no er idea of what Paul is really saying about the law and the flesh without the Spirit.[/b]

I read Romans 7 but it does not cancel what Romans 2 says very clearly. Here is the text from Romans 2 -

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness,

It starts of with - the DOERS of the law are just, NOT the hearers. Then it uses the Gentiles as an example of a group of people that have not heard the law, but by nature do good works BECAUSE THE WORKS OF THE LAW IS WRITTEN THEIR HEARTS.

All humans have a conscience. They know right from wrong. Nobody in any religion need to be told what good works are. It is my view that on judgment day Christ will reward all
- the good samaritans of the world,
- all the Rehabs of the world
- all the thieves on the cross (who have last minute change of heart)
- all the good Hindus
- all the good muslims (are there any ? 😀 - just kidding)
- and certainly all the good Christians who do good works.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Yes.. I understood you meant that. .. Faith Plus good works.

Sometime ago you said that someone can get salvation by faith only. I get the impression that youmay have revised that view.

My problem is that I am still grappling with some the passages by both Paul and Christ that seem to suggest that although a Gentile may not know of Christ, neither be b ...[text shortened]... ed with his mouth only, that he believes. It makes no sense and is contrary to what Christ said.

Yes.. I understood you meant that. .. Faith Plus good works.

Sometime ago you said that someone can get salvation by faith only. I get the impression that you may have revised that view.

Yes, I have revised my view recently, as I have been engaged in an in depth study of Romans.

Faith, however, is the essential quality of all people, whoever they may be, who do obey the law. God rewards everyone according to their works, but only those having faith obey God's law. Thus...

"God ... will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith (italics mine). Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law" (Romans 3:30-31).

Originally posted by Rajk999
I read Romans 7 but it does not cancel what Romans 2 says very clearly. Here is the text from Romans 2 -

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselv (are there any ? 😀 - just kidding)
- and certainly all the good Christians who do good works.

Paul's purpose in Romans 2 is to convince Jews that they have no right to judge Gentiles, who do not have the law, for doing the very things (described at the end of Romans 1) that they themselves do.

Likewise, those Gentiles who obey the law according to their conscience rather than according to the law of Moses, are better off than the Jews who do have the law and yet do the very same things they accuse Gentiles of doing.

Your reading is accurate, I think. God will judge people according to the light that they have been given.

However, only those having faith (however small) actually obey God's law, whether Jew or Gentile (which Romans 3:30-31 attests). Such people, if given the opportunity, will recognize that Christ is Lord and follow Him. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" (John 10:27).