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OK, so forgiveness and salvation of a person are not available to those who do not possess certain beliefs. Is judgment made based on the state of belief at the time of the person’s death? That would make some sense. But a person may be unconscious and in effect, lack ANY beliefs when they die. So is judgment made based on their last conscious belief on the subject?
18 Jan 18
Originally posted by @rajk999I doubt they even believe all the nonsense they write.
Jesus was clear about who enters the Kingdom of God but those who are to lazy to do what is required will always find alternative doctrines. I doubt they even believe all the nonsense they write.
Unfortunately it seems they do
18 Jan 18
Originally posted by @js357Not sure, but it seems likely that most who hold this incredibly perverse conception of God would say that God cannot forgive it.
Is the title of this thread correct, or should it say God could, but will not, forgive? That is, was this a freely made decision by God? If so, what could have happened that would make Him unable to forgive a particular sin?
Originally posted by @freakykbhThe premise is wanting, so any work which follows will produce less-than satisfactory results.
The premise is wanting, so any work which follows will produce less-than satisfactory results.
All sins have been removed from the conversation, so, by default, there are no unforgivable sins to get worked up over.
All paid, all resolved.
The only question left: your work or His work?
Will you stand before God on the basis and merit of your work, or ...[text shortened]... lace?
I don't know of anyone who isn't self-serving.
Some are just better at it than others.
All sins have been removed from the conversation, so, by default, there are no unforgivable sins to get worked up over.
All paid, all resolved.
Sin is commonly defined as a transgression against the will of God.
The non-acceptance of "His golden ticket" is against the will of God, making it a sin. To claim otherwise is nonsensical.
The only question left: your work or His work?
Will you stand before God on the basis and merit of your work, or are you willing to consider it all worthless currency in His economy and accept His golden ticket in its place?
The acceptance of "His golden ticket" is done by the efforts of the individual accepting the ticket, making it a "work" of the individual. To claim otherwise is nonsensical.
Evidently you plan to stand "before God on the basis and merit" of YOUR work" which will be: "But..but..I have a 'Golden Ticket'". You have a Willy Wonka conception of God.
I don't know of anyone who isn't self-serving.
Some are just better at it than others.
What a nonsensical response. It's akin to a serial killer trying to use the following as a defense: "I don't know of anyone who doesn't do anything wrong".
You've succeeded in taking an incredibly perverse conception of God and making it all the more nonsensical.
18 Jan 18
Originally posted by @sonshipNo. I do not see perverseness.
No. I do not see perverseness. But I see salvation as the New Testament says it - being in Christ. The salvation IS Christ. So being in the living Person of Christ one is in the salvation.
Now I'm sorry. But you're just going to have to put up with my bible thumping because I want you to know WHY I say this is the NT teaching.
[quote] [b] " But of Him ...[text shortened]... But the New Testament says it is being put INTO the living Person Who Himself IS the salvation.
All you've done here is side-step the real question.
I understand your rationalizations in your attempt to justify your remarkably self-serving conception of God, but the question still remains:
How is a conception of God wherein God can forgive every imaginable atrocity - serially murdering and torturing others, serially raping children, etc. - but cannot forgive an individual for not believing that "that Jesus is God and flesh" or not having "a faithful, independent trust in the work of Christ upon the cross who cleansed us from our sins" not incredibly perverse?
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19 Jan 18
Originally posted by @thinkofone
[b]No. I do not see perverseness.
All you've done here is side-step the real question.
I understand your rationalizations in your attempt to justify your remarkably self-serving conception of God, but the question still remains:
How is a conception of God wherein God can forgive every imaginable atrocity - serially murdering and torturing ot ...[text shortened]... ust in the work of Christ upon the cross who cleansed us from our sins" not incredibly perverse?[/b]
All you've done here is side-step the real question.
I really don't think you can talk about side-stepping. It is you who will not be candid about some matters like rejecting the resurrection of Christ and the authority of the New Testament. Your method of kind of hoping no one will notice such momentous negations of the Gospel I consider huge side-stepping in a covert way.
Where is the post from you directly stepping into a confession that you do not believe Christ rose from the dead?
Where is the post from you directly stepping into an admission of rejecting probably 80% of the New Testament as a myth?
I understand your rationalizations in your attempt to justify your remarkably self-serving conception of God, but the question still remains:
How is a conception of God wherein God can forgive every imaginable atrocity - serially murdering and torturing others, serially raping children, etc. - but cannot forgive an individual for not believing that "that Jesus is God and flesh" or not having "a faithful, independent trust in the work of Christ upon the cross who cleansed us from our sins" not incredibly perverse?
I totally stand by the little that I wrote on this. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. God forgives because of the shedding of the blood of Christ for sins.
The benefit of that substitution takes place by being IN Christ. Just like being IN the ark of Noah saved men from the judgment of the flood. Nodding in agreement that an ark of Noah was sitting there did not save anyone. Entering into the ark of Noah and having the door shut behind them saved them from judgment.
To enter into the ark of Noah did not require one to have mastered all of the technical details of its construction. But to come into the ark was safety from judgment. The typology informs us of the need to enter into Jesus Christ.
Noah, his wife, Shem and his wife, Ham and his wife, and Japheth and his wife were people with offenses against God as well as the surrounding society. By how much, I don't know. But they by faith entered into the instrument of salvation, the ark.
Jesus Christ is the ark of God protecting us from eternal judgement. I am limited to a brief post here and not a chapter of a book.
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19 Jan 18
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How is a conception of God wherein God can forgive every imaginable atrocity - serially murdering and torturing others, serially raping children, etc. - but cannot forgive an individual for not believing that "that Jesus is God and flesh" or not having "a faithful, independent trust in the work of Christ upon the cross who cleansed us from our sins" not incredibly perverse?
When I worked in Manhattan NY in the Pan Am building I was on the 24th floor (if I recall). I sometimes would go look out of the window at the city of millions of people - millions. And I would say to myself. "Behold the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world." .
The ONE sacrifice of Christ was enough to take away the sin of the whole world, however deep, however bloody, however heinous. One offering for all mankind bore the judgment of God's condemnation in one all-inclusive act.
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19 Jan 18
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Bad sins were judged in Christ. Good sins (if such a thing exist) were judged. Public sins - judged, Private sins - judged. Forgivable sins - judged. Unforgivable sins - judged. All sins of men and women - judged in Christ. He was the Lamb of God taking away the sins of the world.
You are saying that it is perverse that not so bad sins were carried up in His body to the cross, but really, really bad sins should not have been. But He carried up all of our sins in His body to the cross.
This was like a blank check given upon which any amount of money may be written in.
It is God's will that the substitution work on our behalf only as we enter into the resurrected Christ and are joined to the living One. This is why Paul said that if Christ be not raised (as in your 'Jesus while He walked on earth' disbelief ) they were still in their sins.
" And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins." (1 Cor. 15:17)
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19 Jan 18
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Originally posted by @js357JS357, Concerning mysterious matters like foreknowledge and predestination, this is how I would advise all seekers for truth:
Does God have foreknowledge that a person will commit the unforgivable sin?
USE the teaching of predestination positively, always.
Assume that God has predestinated only and all positive outcome for you and THANK Him up front.
An example of a good prayer.
"Dear God, I just read about predestination and foreknowledge. In faith I want to THANK YOU for predestinating me to be saved in the Lord Jesus Christ, to be overcoming, to be victorious, to be set apart for You and to be Yours forever in eternal life.
By faith O Lord Jesus, I thank You for Your foreknowledge and Your predestination in my forgiveness and salvation. Amen."
Let predestination work FOR you in a positive and merciful way by faith. God will honor this. God will honor this exercise of just a little faith in your heart.
Don't moan "Oh, maybe God knew all along that I would be LOST forever. Oh, maybe God predestination me to perish away from Him."
Turn it all around and THANK God for whatever foreknowledge or predestination He has concerning you.
Use predestination rather than torture yourself with anxiety about it.
Amen.
Thankyou Lord Jesus.
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19 Jan 18
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Don't be a fool man. Use God's predestination to work mightily the grace to overcome.
How good it would be to awake each morning with a prayer something like this:
Good morning Lord Jesus! I thank You that You have absolutely FOREKNOWN that I would be a victorious Christian. I praise You that you have absolutely PREDESTINATED me to be a Christian full of the Holy Spirit, walking in grace and victory today.
Lord Jesus, I don't believe my failures. I believe the power of Your predestination and Your foreknowledge."
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19 Jan 18
Originally posted by @sonshipSo the answer is yes, God has foreknowledge of any of his created humans committing the unforgivable sin, and creates them anyway.
JS357, Concerning mysterious matters like foreknowledge and predestination, this is how I would advise all seekers for truth:
USE the teaching of predestination positively, always.
Assume that God has predestinated only and all positive outcome for you and THANK Him up front.
An example of a good prayer.
[quote] "Dear God, I just read about pred ...[text shortened]... edestination rather than torture yourself with anxiety about it.
Amen.
Thankyou Lord Jesus.
Is God free to create a world in which all have free will to commit the unforgivable sin, but no one chooses to do so?
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19 Jan 18
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Originally posted by @sonshipCool. But back to the chap who committed the only sin that cannot be forgiven, something God knew would happen in advance but allowed to happen anyway,....even though this would result in eternal torment...
JS357, Concerning mysterious matters like foreknowledge and predestination, this is how I would advise all seekers for truth:
USE the teaching of predestination positively, always.
Assume that God has predestinated only and all positive outcome for you and THANK Him up front.
An example of a good prayer.
[quote] "Dear God, I just read about pred ...[text shortened]... edestination rather than torture yourself with anxiety about it.
Amen.
Thankyou Lord Jesus.
Edit: Predestination goes both ways buddy. That's the flaw in your morning prayer.
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20 Jan 18
1 edit
Originally posted by @js357
So the answer is yes, God has foreknowledge of any of his created humans committing the unforgivable sin, and creates them anyway.
Is God free to create a world in which all have free will to commit the unforgivable sin, but no one chooses to do so?
So the answer is yes, God has foreknowledge of any of his created humans committing the unforgivable sin, and creates them anyway.
Predestination, free will and divine foreknowedge are so mysterious that I don't think anyone fully understands them,
So I observe how they are used in the Bible itself. It seems that we are taught to hope in such a all-inclusive and all-encompassing eternal and infinite Mind.
For instance:
"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." (Rom. 8:28)
Less worthwhile pursuits:
Try to figure out who He called and who He did not.
Try to figure out how fair each case is.
Over speculate on the circular reasoning problems.
Contemplate the cause and effect paradox of all this.
These are all exercises which usually only go to the glory of man's intellect that he may boast about how analytical he is. This is vain-glory.
More worthwhile pursuits:
Tell God that you love Him.
Tell God that you trust His eternal abilities to engineer all
things for good.
Trust that "all things" working together for good annuls every misfortune you have ever had. God can cause them ALL , no matter how unfortunate. to work out for blessing.
Notice God's predestination and foreknowledge in the life of Joseph in Genesis. God meant it for good. All the misfortune heaped on Joseph from his brothers, god caused to work for Joseph's AND his brother's blessing.
Notice how even the execution of the Son of God turned out as great fortune to the world that we may be redeemed.
So I offered an example of prayer, pragmatically putting our trust in God's tremendous transcendent wisdom.
This increases our enjoyment of God and fills our lives up more with Christ.
Is God free to create a world in which all have free will to commit the unforgivable sin, but no one chooses to do so?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does such a contemplation add more Christ to my life?
Then I will pursue it.
If all it does is influence me to lean on my own understanding, it is not that worthwhile.
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Originally posted by @sonshipThe only problem I have with that prayer is that coming from me it would not be sincere. Edit: I will wait until I mean it sincerely, if that day comes.
Don't be a fool man. Use God's predestination to work mightily the grace to overcome.
How good it would be to awake each morning with a prayer something like this:
Good morning Lord Jesus! I thank You that You have absolutely FOREKNOWN that I would be a victorious Christian. I praise You that you have absolutely PREDESTINATED me to be a Chr ...[text shortened]... elieve my failures. I believe the power of Your predestination and Your foreknowledge."
Now, can God choose to create a world in which everyone freely chooses not to commit the unforgivable sin? Edit: This is not all that mysterious, the answer is yes.