The Origin of God

Originally posted by knightmeister
I'd be willing to try to discuss it if you'd demonstrate that you can be bothered to actually read and comprehend what I post. Thus far, you have declined. If you can't be bothered to read and comprehend it, why should I bother to post it?
------------------------------ToO----------------------------------------

Ok , I'll take you at your word then ink about the context or any other passages? You are better than that.

Seriously KM. When BW suggested that you reread his previous post, you completely ignored it and forged ahead with your own point. I posted to point this out to you and you've completely ignored my posts. What would it take for you to be bothered to read and comprehend what others post?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Seriously KM. When BW suggested that you reread his previous post, you completely ignored it and forged ahead with your own point. I posted to point this out to you and you've completely ignored my posts. What would it take for you to be bothered to read and comprehend what others post?

Why do you live in the past? What about right here and right now. The simple fact is that whatever you may think , I DID go back and look at Badwater's post in more detail and showed the gross logical flaw that was within it. A flaw , I might add , you or Badwater have yet to address.

I have told you what my understanding is of your posts and I am trying to comprehend them. This is my understanding.

1) You assert that in John 8:32 Jesus explicitly states that we must overcome sin completely or "not be in the house forever".

2) Elsewhere you have either implicitly or explicitly said that forgiveness is a one time thing and once a person has repented he has finished with sin.

Having told you what my understanding is all I can then do is wait for you to tell me what I have misunderstood and what I have understood correctly. What more do you expect of me?

My assertion is that if 1) and 2) are correct then they are in logical contradiction with Matt 6:9 where Jesus tells Christians how they are supposed to daily pray to God ("forgive us our trespasses" )

So far you have said absolutely nothing about this. You continue to avoid the issues and live in the past.You know its a problem for you but it would kill you to admit it. You are too proud to admit the problem and anyone reading this exchange would see this. Your ego prevents you, as it always has , from realising that your position is not as cut and dried as you think it is. You simply cannot bear the anxiety this creates because it means you can't go around bashing people by quoting John 8:32 at them.

How do you hold on to any integrity as someone who discusses issues when you are so obviously running away from something you cannot resolve in your mind. You are only delueding yourself.

It makes no sense for Jesus to tell us to overcome sin completely or not be a follower of his - BUT then later on tell his followers that the way we should pray is to ask for repeated forgiveness.

IT DOESN'T ADD UP.

Matt 6:9 is the only guidance Jesus ever gives on prayer. He makes no adjustments after this. The logical conclusion is that this is the template for Christian prayer. And yet you seem to say that any Christian who has not overcome sin is not a Christian. So why would Jesus tell us to pray in this way?

So why do you search around for excuses and cul-de-sacs to avoid just discussing the issue at hand?

Have you nothing to say about Matt 6:9? My guess is that you need time to figure out how you can get yourself out of this.

You love to try and make others re-think their postion but when the roles are reversed you are lost.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Seriously KM. When BW suggested that you reread his previous post, you completely ignored it and forged ahead with your own point. I posted to point this out to you and you've completely ignored my posts. What would it take for you to be bothered to read and comprehend what others post?

What would it take for you to be bothered to read and comprehend what others post?
----------ToOne------------------------------------------------------

This is almost a farce now! What it would take is some simple prompting and reminding. I did this with Badwater's post but you now seem to have not even realised this. I did what you asked and STILL you won't discuss MATT6:9

The problem is that it's not "reading and comprehending" that you actually want.

This seems to be your thinking process....................

1) ToOne's position is totally correct ,logical and unchallengable
2) Therefore anyone who reads ToOne's post will see the truth and immediately agree with him
3) KM does not agree with ToOne's position therefore.....
4) KM has not read and understood ToOne's posts.

It's circular nonsense! How about re-thinking 1) rather than just asking people to re-read things?

It's only your hubris that stops you thinking that maybe, just maybe 1) might not actually be true.

Originally posted by knightmeister
What would it take for you to be bothered to read and comprehend what others post?
----------ToOne------------------------------------------------------

This is almost a farce now! What it would take is some simple prompting and reminding. I did this with Badwater's post but you now seem to have not even realised this. I did what you asked and STI hubris that stops you thinking that maybe, just maybe 1) might not actually be true.

It's evident that you still have no idea why BW said, "Guess you need to reread my previous post." What's more, since you don't seem to understand it, I'm still trying to get you to reread and comprehend BW's point. That's pretty much all I've been trying to do since I came in. If you'd reread and comprehend my posts, you'd realize this.

Do you think you can stop being such a pompous ass for once? You're always in such a hurry to get on the attack that you don't bother to comprehend the posts of others. It seems that LJ has tried to get you to do so with his, same with TW I believe, I know I have numerous times. You know what? The problem is with you. If you had the smallest amount of humility, you'd come to this realization. Perhaps then you could also work on the fact that your level of discernment is little better than that of a child.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
It's evident that you still have no idea why BW said, "Guess you need to reread my previous post." What's more, since you don't seem to understand it, I'm still trying to get you to reread and comprehend BW's point. That's pretty much all I've been trying to do since I came in. If you'd reread and comprehend my posts, you'd realize this.

Do you think ...[text shortened]... on the fact that your level of discernment is little better than that of a child.

You know , what you have said may or may not be true. I may be a pompous ass as you say , I might not be. There may be some profound revelation to be gleaned from Bwater's post or your previous posts , or there may be nothing there. Who knows.

None of these issues are important. My humility (or lack of) is neither here nor there. What is evident is that Matt6:9 is in direct conflict with your position on John 8:32.

So what have you done to challenge this or counter my argument? Nothing. You have no answer.

It simply makes no sense why Jesus would on one hand say his followers must overcome sin once and for all , but on the other hand say that they must pray daily for forgiveness from sin. It's logically inconsistent.

Now stop deflecting, stalling and going down cul-de-sacs. So far you have said nothing substantial on this thread about the issues and instead you have sought to play some kind of mind game.

You obviously have no argument to make , nor any logical or rational counter argument. Behind all the rhetoric of your recent posts there is nothing there.

Which point is it excactly that you want me to address? You haven't made any points on this thread so far!!!!! Do you really have so little self knowledge that you cannot see your reticience to discuss anything that does not conform to your pre-concieved position?

All you have to do is cut it and paste it and I will discuss it. But you won't - you don't want any discussion to take place that does not support your position. It's so childish.

As I said , you feign discussion but in reality you are on a mission. The evidence is in this thread.

I ask you once again - discuss the issue at hand.

Originally posted by knightmeister
You know , what you have said may or may not be true. I may be a pompous ass as you say , I might not be. There may be some profound revelation to be gleaned from Bwater's post or your previous posts , or there may be nothing there. Who knows.

None of these issues are important. My humility (or lack of) is neither here nor there. What is evident is ion. The evidence is in this thread.

I ask you once again - discuss the issue at hand.

Can't be bothered to read and comprehend the posts of others to the end.

A pompous ass to the end.

You're incorrigible.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Can't be bothered to read and comprehend the posts of others to the end.

A pompous ass to the end.

You're incorrigible.

Pardon? This is farcical !

Is it pompous to try and explore an issue logically with a rational supporting argument? If I am "pompous" what does that make you?

I read Badwater's post , and also responded to it with a logical response to which you and badwater have no response thus far.

I am not aware of any post you have made on this thread so far that has any relevant content to the issues being discussed. You have said nothing, so I cannot respond to anything. You told me I was hasty in dismissing Badwater's point , and this was correct , but I did so because I felt it was an illogical point (which I have since argued successfully).

I don't want to discuss , me or you particularly , I want to discuss the issues around what Jesus said.

Apparently you do not seem to want to discuss what Jesus said but continue to wallow around in abstract comments about me.

I would have thought that a person who quoted Jesus so often would want to discus the words of Jesus? No?

I do understand though , it must be hard for you to see your most treasured position on John 8:32 challenged so logically. You must feel a bit like a computer that cannot compute two conflicting pieces of information. The program starts to fail and nothing that makes sense comes out.

How long do you think you can duck and dive from this one? Jesus would never ask his followers to pray to God for daily forgiveness if the expectation was (in John 8:32) that forgiveness was a one time deal as you say.

Would you sooner cling to smokescreens and evasions rather than address this issue logically and objectively. Is your position so lacking in robustness?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Pardon? This is farcical !

Is it pompous to try and explore an issue logically with a rational supporting argument? If I am "pompous" what does that make you?

I read Badwater's post , and also responded to it with a logical response to which you and badwater have no response thus far.

I am not aware of any post you have made on this th an address this issue logically and objectively. Is your position so lacking in robustness?

What's "pompous" is that you continue to attack instead of bothering to comprehend the posts of others. If you'd comprehended my earlier posts, you'd realize this. If you'd comprehended BW's suggestion that you reread his post, you'd realize that the post to which you responded, has nothing to do with his suggestion.

Those reasons alone, make you a pompous ass. If you'd actually read and comprehend my earlier posts, you'd see several other things that make you a pompous ass.

At any time during this exchange (or better still after BW suggested it), you could have reread his suggestion within context and understood what he was saying. But you remain too much of a pompous ass to do so. Heck, you could even do it now....you could even reread and try to comprehend my earlier post, but then, you'd have to be able to muster up some humility and that would be so out of character for you.

And somehow you continue to fail to understand why I choose not to engage in a discussion about your wild speculations. Evidently you haven't been able to comprehend what I've said in earlier posts.


You're incorrigible.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
What's "pompous" is that you continue to attack instead of bothering to comprehend the posts of others. If you'd comprehended my earlier posts, you'd realize this. If you'd comprehended BW's suggestion that you reread his post, you'd realize that the post to which you responded, has nothing to do with his suggestion.

Those reasons alone, make you a pom ...[text shortened]... been able to comprehend what I've said in earlier posts.


You're incorrigible.

Ok , mate. You've worn me down. You want me to go back and re-read and try to comprehend.

Ok , I will put the issue of Matt 6:9 versus John 8:32 on one side for now and see what you have to say.

So , can I check then? You want me to go back to the point where Badwater challenged me with the post below? I only ask because I need to be specific about what it is exactly you think I have not understood. I cannot mind read. So please be a tad more specific. Do you think that I did not address point 2) ?

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"Hold on a moment. Jesus is teaching while he's alive and Christians believe that his death is the atonement for sins. Jesus is instructing for the forgiveness of sins because 1) He's not dead yet, and 2) He's not making the assumption that all have been baptized - either in his listening audience at the time or after. Regardless of whether you believe that or not, I don't think it's quite fair to ignore that a Christian believer may be making that distinction while you seem to not be making that distinction."
------------------------------BadWater-------------------------------------

Originally posted by knightmeister
Ok , mate. You've worn me down. You want me to go back and re-read and try to comprehend.

Ok , I will put the issue of Matt 6:9 versus John 8:32 on one side for now and see what you have to say.

So , can I check then? You want me to go back to the point where Badwater challenged me with the post below? I only ask because I need to be specific a inction."
------------------------------BadWater-------------------------------------

You don't have to "mind read". I've already told you several times.

What surely remains lost on you is the fact that because you have shown repeatedly that you can't be bothered to read and comprehend the posts of others, there's no point in trying to engage in a meaningful discussion with you. But then, if you'd bothered to read and comprehend my posts, you'd already know this.

Even now you can't be bothered to read and comprehend my posts.

You're incorrigible.

Well, if nothing else, you've convinced me that you are still incapable of seeing anything in other than in the most superficial and self-centered manner. Actually, it's remarkable how much you struggle with even the most superficial. But if you sincerely seek to overcome your extreme myopia, I believe that you are capable of becoming a rational being.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You don't have to "mind read". I've already told you several times.

What surely remains lost on you is the fact that because you have shown repeatedly that you can't be bothered to read and comprehend the posts of others, there's no point in trying to engage in a meaningful discussion with you. But then, if you'd bothered to read and comprehend my pos ...[text shortened]... ven now you can't be bothered to read and comprehend my posts.

You're incorrigible.

You must be the most obtuse person on this forum. Why do you pretend to yourself that you are discussing anything with anyone? Is it the twisted pleasure of winding people up? Or the ego boost gained from making others think , whilst ignoring any challenge that comes your way?

You say that I can't be bothered to read others posts or comprehend them. However , I am now offfering to do so and engage in a meaningful discussion about them.

Your response to this is to not offer anything at all , not even to clarify what it was I was supposed to comprehend. I offer something and you refuse to meet me halfway. Infact not even 20% of the way.

You seem to want nothing less than absolute and complete humiliation of an individual before you will discuss anything. It's as if you dare not discuss anything properly with anyone until they have virtually agreed that you are right before they start.

Ok , so I''ll mind read then. It was Badwater's post on this thread. My guess is that what Badwater was saying is that in Matt 6:9 Jesus may have only been addressing those who are not baptised and therefore not his followers? This would mean that John 8:32 could still stand because John 8:32 was addressed to all who would follow him?

I'm not sure if this was what Badwater meant. What do you think he meant?

I dismissed Badwater's post quite quickly because for me it had all the hallmarks of an ill thought out point designed have a go at me just for the sake of it.

Much of what Badwater said was just speculation. Jesus does not say that he is being selective about who he is addressing. Commentaries on Matt 6:9 tend to say that Matt 6:9 is an instruction by Jesus on how Christians should pray. I know of no commentator who thinks otherwise , do you?

His disciples ask him "how should we pray? " and Matt 6:9 is his answer. As far as I understand it his disciples were baptised , but even if they weren't they were certainly his followers.

The hypocrisy of your position is that you fail to comment on Badwaters wild speculation on these things. If you were consistent you would realise that Badwater is just throwing things out there that don't add up.

While we are at it , how do we know who John 8:32 is addressed to? You have always contended that it applies to Christians , but how do we know? Maybe if you pretend to yourself that there are different rules for Matt 6:9 than for John 8:32 you can somehow make them fit together?

Let's review -Jesus says (according to you) in John 8:32 that all Christians are to have overcome sin or not be in the house forever. But in Matt 6:9 he's NOT talking to all Christians , but only those who are not baptised?????????????????

Sounds like speculation to me.

It's pretty clear that in Matt 6:9 Jesus is offering guidance on prayer to all believers. He offers no other guidance anywhere else in the NT. He say explicitly that we must ask God for forgiveness on a daily basis. Infact this instruction is even more specific than anything in John 8:32.

You will find any excuse you can to avoid thrashing out the issues. Any cul-de-sac will do for you , as long as you can avoid the logical inconsistency of your position.

Haven't you ever realised that you are happy to discuss things only when things are weighted in your favour. There are simply areas of discussion and debate that you will never experience unless you drop, your loaded dice.

Originally posted by knightmeister
You must be the most obtuse person on this forum. Why do you pretend to yourself that you are discussing anything with anyone? Is it the twisted pleasure of winding people up? Or the ego boost gained from making others think , whilst ignoring any challenge that comes your way?

You say that I can't be bothered to read others posts or comprehend them ...[text shortened]... sion and debate that you will never experience unless you drop, your loaded dice.

What part of the following didn't you understand?
"You don't have to 'mind read'. I've already told you several times."

Do I really need to tell you that this means that you need to go back, read and comprehend my earlier posts to be able to find what you've already been told?

Why do you insist on being such a clown?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
What part of the following didn't you understand?
"You don't have to 'mind read'. I've already told you several times."

Do I really need to tell you that this means that you need to go back, read and comprehend my earlier posts to be able to find what you've already been told?

Why do you insist on being such a clown?

1) You have told me numerous times how John 8:32 is where Jesus is explicitly telling Christians that they must overcome sin completely or not be in the house forever.

2) In Matt 6:9 Jesus is explicitly telling Christians to pray daily for forgiveness from sin

3) A man who has overcome sin has no need for repeated forgiveness from God.

So given 1,2 and 3 - too right I don't comprehend!!!!!! What is it that you are telling me? That Matt 6:9 and John 8:32 sit together easily?

You ask me to comprehend you but everything you have said about John 8:32 is thrown into disarray by Matt 6:9.

You have still yet to post anything on this post to address this. I'm beginning to think that you have no idea how to resolve it other than to cling tenaciously to Badwater's wild speculations.

Originally posted by knightmeister
1) You have told me numerous times how John 8:32 is where Jesus is explicitly telling Christians that they must overcome sin completely or not be in the house forever.

2) In Matt 6:9 Jesus is explicitly telling Christians to pray daily for forgiveness from sin

3) A man who has overcome sin has no need for repeated forgiveness from God.

So giv ve no idea how to resolve it other than to cling tenaciously to Badwater's wild speculations.

Just reread everything in this thread for comprehension.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Just reread everything for comprehension.

You once again offer no way in. No indication of what it is you want me to comprehend nor any attempt to address anything substantial or issue based.

Why exactly do you bother with this forum if you don't want to discuss anything that challenges you?

You have no interest in anything rational or objective , just crusading. Any objective poster would see that Jesus would not ask Christians to pray daily for forgiveness if he really believed that they could completely overcome sin as easily as you say.

It seems you are only interested in discussing the explicit words of Jesus when they seem to support your position. Anything else is not to be discussed?

That's fine to do this - but in doing so you forfeit your right on this forum to portray yourself as objective and rational. You are as biased as they come. You say that others are speculating and interpreting , but you haven't the self awareness to see you are doing it yourself.

That's why you can't deal with the Matt 6:9 versus John 8:32 problem. There are no place for problems in your world. You have it all sewn up and cut and dried. It's an illusion you have constructed for yourself because emotionally your have a need to bash Christianity.

Fortunately , I'm not the only one to see through it. Hopefully that number will grow as they see your inability to face certain issues.

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1) You have told me numerous times how John 8:32 is where Jesus is explicitly telling Christians that they must overcome sin completely or not be in the house forever.

2) In Matt 6:9 Jesus is explicitly telling Christians to pray daily for forgiveness from sin

3) A man who has overcome sin has no need for repeated forgiveness from God.
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