23 Jan 15
Originally posted by Shallow Blue
No. No, it isn't. It's based on the same kind of Hineininterpretierung as Shakespearian Baconism, or English Israelitism. He's reading whole volumes of meaning into a verse that was only meant to carry one verse of meaning.
[b]I too believe this statement word for word. Further comment on the Rapture to follow.
So you'd rat ...[text shortened]... cannot know when and how he will return[/i]?
That sounds like apostasy and hagiolatry to me.[/b]Your post contains a seed of doubt. It is this doubt that has caused me to take another look at dogma I had dismissed. I thought the Thessalonian verses were describing a post-Tribulation, post-second advent of Christ event. But this doubt you've included in your post, "the explicit statement of Jesus Himself that we cannot know when and how he will return" has been one reason I am looking at it again. I could never square this idea of "we cannot know when Christ will return, even Jesus himself said that no one knows except the Father" with the necessity that this event will happen at the end of the Great Tribulation, when Christ finally returns to vanquish the AntiChrist on the Mount of Olives. This event necessarily MUST happen at the end of the 42-month period of Great Tribulation following the appearance of "the abomination of desolation" in the "holy place" and seven years after the initial events of the "Beginning of Sorrows", namely the Rapture event we're talking about in this thread and the treaty between Israel and its Arab neighbors.
In this way, and at that time, we CAN know when Christ will return. We are TOLD how and when in Scripture, in relation to other events. The one thing we canNOT know is when this event, the Rapture, the event which starts off the seven-year chain of events leading up to the return of Christ, will occur. When the Rapture event happens, now we will know, because then a seven-year timeline of events begins which necessarily leads up to the return of Christ. But the Rapture will occur in a twinkling, as a thief in the night, and NO one will see it coming, even those who are waiting and expecting it. Either way, the prophecy that "no one knows the day nor hour" is correct, for we cannot know the time of the Rapture event, nor the day nor hour of the actual return to Earth of Christ, even though we may know what year, and even possibly what month, once the Rapture kicks things off.
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Too many studies on the Rapture only seem to concentrate on the TIME of the event. A far more balanced study would include preparation of life for the event.
Let me illustrate. Daniel studied the prophecy of Jeremiah to determine when the Hebrews who had been taken away to Babylon would return. He ascertained that the time of exile would last 70 years.
Now instead of Daniel simply passively waiting it out with a self assured sense of "I KNOW" he had a spiritual reaction. What did Daniel do? He begin to PRAY for the matter three times a day with the window of his house opened towards the holy land.
Daniel was not satisfied simply to have an accurate objective knowledge about the return. He had it on his heart to petition God consistently and faithfully for God to fulfill His desire. He did this even to the threat of his very life.
Why didn't Daniel simply say "Well, God will bring the Hebrews back to Jerusalem at the correct TIME that God promised. There is no need for me to ASK Him to do this. I can just be passive and wait for the clock to tick the time away until the correct moment." ?
One might wonder. Which Really caused the return from Babylon to occur? Was it just God's promise? Or was it Daniel's strong prayers to God to fulfill His plan?
We should realize that it was both. God had a will. God had a man on earth who echoed His will. God's man on the earth prayed and prepared his being in a way corresponding to God's will. This godly man sought for God to fulfill His promise even at the cost of threats to his life.
Daniel did not live loosely with a mere objective knowledge that at so and so time on so and so date the return of the Hebrews would take place. He cooperated with God to hasten and facilitate God to fulfill His will.
I submit so should it be for the rapture. Simply to know the time or the season is too objective and unrelated to spiritual life. To live with the sense that you wish to be happy at the Lord's coming is also vital.
Afterall - strictly speaking "rapture" (not a biblical word) means an ecstatic happiness. Do not be caught up in the timing of rapture and miss the happy expectant living in view of His appearing. And we even should pray and petition that God WOULD fulfill His word.
Enoch and Daniel are both good models for this rapture matter.
23 Jan 15
Originally posted by RBHILLThank you for putting my perspective of you back in order.
http://www.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_meaning_of_%27twinkling_of_an_eye%27
What is the meaning of 'twinkling of an eye'?
There are three portions of time to consider here, The wink, the blink and the twink (no kidding-there was actually a study done). A blink is a controlled movement of the eye and so it's length of time is indeterminate, but the quickest ...[text shortened]... oluntary, very wide dialation in the eye when a person experiences an intense sexual attraction.
23 Jan 15
Originally posted by SuziannePerhaps you can layout you reasons for changing your perspective?
I felt the same way about it. It seemed to me too many Christians were all like "The Tribulation? Who cares, I won't be here." I felt too many were thinking of it as some kind of "Get out of jail free" card. Lately, however, I've been re-focused towards it as something that could be entirely plausible, a thought I hadn't really entertained before. Abou ...[text shortened]... l events prophesied to take place. It makes perfect sense when seen as part of an overall plan.
23 Jan 15
Originally posted by divegeesterIn due time. I'm not really sure of all of them myself yet. I've just laid one reason out earlier with my post about how this helps me understand my previous reluctance about Jesus' statement that "no one knows the day nor hour" of his return, when yes, we DO know (or at least, we WILL know when we get there), and that the unknown time of the Rapture helps to veil the time of Christ's return. I have another reason which was actually more relevant to my questioning of my dogma, which I'll cover later.
Perhaps you can layout you reasons for changing your perspective?
I'm somewhat uncomfortable that suddenly my own personal dogma, the veracity of which I did not doubt for an instant, is now in upheaval. I'm also not sure where this will end, or what other pieces of my personal dogma will come under scrutiny, either.
Perhaps this was foreshadowed by your "seeking vs. knowing" thread. Who knows?
23 Jan 15
Originally posted by SuzianneI've been going through what you describe for a while.
I'm somewhat uncomfortable that suddenly my own personal dogma, the veracity of which I did not doubt for an instant, is now in upheaval. I'm also not sure where this will end, or what other pieces of my personal dogma will come under scrutiny, either.
Perhaps this was foreshadowed by your "seeking vs. knowing" thread. Who knows?
Haha change in our time!
23 Jan 15
Originally posted by Shallow BlueWell, then I invite you to stay on in this thread and explore the possibilities as I do. As I said, I did not believe in the traditional Rapture, either. But now, I'm taking stock of my beliefs and taking some time to scrutinize my beliefs.
That was a serious post. Hardly anybody outside the Evangelical USA takes The Rapture, as defined With Capitals, seriously. In fact, I'd say that hardly anyone knows of it at all. It is not standard Christian dogma; it does not have a solid basis in Scripture; if you trust in it, you are fooling yourself, or letting the telev ...[text shortened]... s not a troll; yes, that was a serious answer, from a serious, Christian, non-USA point of view.
I'm calling this "taking a rational second look at it and seeing why I was so adamant that a pre-Tribulation Rapture was just an excuse cooked up by fearful Christians, and exploring if the Rapture can have a logical place in my personal dogma."
Actually, in the US, the concept of a Rapture is more widespread than only among Evangelicals. It is part of almost any church dogma in the US which also believes in a coming Tribulation and AntiChrist.
If it is indeed true that European Christians, as a group, do not generally believe in a Rapture, pre-Tribulation or otherwise, I have to wonder if this has anything at all to do with the prevailing idea that the AntiChrist will be a European politician who rises to world prominence and eventually agrees to an alliance with Satan and is empowered by him going into the Great Tribulation? Do European Christians generally believe in the wider topic of a coming Tribulation as foretold in Revelation, with a Beast and False Prophet and all?
23 Jan 15
Originally posted by SuzianneFrom your earlier post:
Well, then I invite you to stay on in this thread and explore the possibilities as I do. As I said, I did not believe in the traditional Rapture, either. But now, I'm taking stock of my beliefs and taking some time to scrutinize my beliefs.
I'm calling this "taking a rational second look at it and seeing why I was so adamant that a pre-Tribulation Ra ...[text shortened]... topic of a coming Tribulation as foretold in Revelation, with a Beast and False Prophet and all?
I've just laid one reason out earlier with my post about how this helps me understand my previous reluctance about Jesus' statement that "no one knows the day nor hour" of his return, when yes, we DO know (or at least, we WILL know when we get there), and that the unknown time of the Rapture helps to veil the time of Christ's return.That goes without saying really, we don't know when anything is going to happen until it does.
With regard to this post. What prevailing idea that the AntiChrist will be a European Politician? Is this something Americans actually think? Why European and not American or Chinese? In answer to your last sentence, this is not something the Church of England emphasises. I don't know the official positions of the various Churches, but I think most European Christians would probably think that what matters is the spiritual life they have now and whether it happens or not we will all die sooner or later anyway so at an individual level it doesn't make any difference.
23 Jan 15
Originally posted by divegeesterYou two are not alone. Unlearning in my twenties and thirties was a piece of cake compared with unlearning since: "The most useful piece of learning for the uses of life is to unlearn what is untrue." -Antisthenes "The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn, but to unlearn.” -Gloria Steinem “I have spent most of my life unlearning things that were proved not to be true.” -R. Buckminster Fuller "I am learning all the time. The tombstone will be my diploma." -Eartha Kitt
I've been going through what you describe for a while.
Haha change in our time!
24 Jan 15
Originally posted by RBHILL"What is the meaning of 'twinkling of an eye'?"
http://www.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_meaning_of_%27twinkling_of_an_eye%27
What is the meaning of 'twinkling of an eye'?
There are three portions of time to consider here, The wink, the blink and the twink (no kidding-there was actually a study done). A blink is a controlled movement of the eye and so it's length of time is indeterminate, but the quickest ...[text shortened]... oluntary, very wide dialation in the eye when a person experiences an intense sexual attraction.
1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The amount of time it takes light to pass threw the retina.
24 Jan 15
Originally posted by Suzianne2 Corinthians 11:3
Yes, it is, and for obvious reasons.
This isn't a "troll me please" thread. If I wanted that, I would've posted in Trev33's thread.
The thread title is a hint. Serious posts only, please.
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
24 Jan 15
Originally posted by SuzianneThe rapture will occur "immediately after the Tribulation" when Christ returns in His glory.
I'm interested in a serious discussion about the Rapture. I've been exploring some ideas about the Tribulation, and even though I always thought the Rapture was just some wishful thinking by Christians that they could avoid the worst times ever to come to this planet, and that the only Rapture we'll see is the post-Tribulation Rapture when Christ comes bac ...[text shortened]... n, when will it happen, why do you think so, and what has guided your beliefs about the Rapture?
Matt 24:29-31 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
http://www.kjvprophecy.com/Pre-trib_Debunked.htm
24 Jan 15
3 edits
Originally posted by SuzianneTHE SIGN OF HIS COMING AND THE END OF THE AGE
Your post contains a seed of doubt. It is this doubt that has caused me to take another look at dogma I had dismissed. I thought the Thessalonian verses were describing a post-Tribulation, post-second advent of Christ event. But this doubt you've included in your post, "the explicit statement of Jesus Himself that [i]we cannot know when and how he will r ...[text shortened]... n though we may know what year, and even possibly what month, once the Rapture kicks things off.
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
The Great Tribulation and the appearance of the Anti-christ
“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand.
“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
The Coming of the Son of Man and the Resurrection and Rapture
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
This Generation that Sees All these things Shall Not Pass Away Til All these things take Place
“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
No One Knows the Day or Hour
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
(Matthew 24:3-39)
The Resurrection and Rapture (caught up)
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)
The Day of the Lord
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
(1 Thessalonians 5:2-4)
The Coming of the Lord and the Resurrection and Rapture
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)
24 Jan 15
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipOriginally posted by sonship
Too many studies on the Rapture only seem to concentrate on the TIME of the event. A far more balanced study would include preparation of life for the event.
Let me illustrate. Daniel studied the prophecy of Jeremiah to determine when the Hebrews who had been taken away to Babylon would return. He ascertained that the time of exile would last 70 years.
...[text shortened]... that God WOULD fulfill His word.
Enoch and Daniel are both good models for this rapture matter.
"..... Afterall - strictly speaking "rapture" (not a biblical word) means an ecstatic happiness...." "And we even should pray and petition that God WOULD fulfill His word."
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The word "rapture" in this biblical context depicts an imminent prophetic event in God's Plan with the express meaning of being "caught up", in effect an exit or sudden exodus of Church Age Believers in Christ from planet earth; "ecstatic happiness" at His appearing is another dimension of the event. God always 'fulfills' His word. His attributes of veracity and immutability, justice and righteousness [divine integrity] cannot deny themselves by doing otherwise in 2015 or ever.
___________________________________
"Now we must remember that like the term “Trinity,” the term “rapture” is not found in the original languages of Scripture but rather is taken from the Latin term rapio, “caught up” that is used to translate the Greek verb harpazo, “caught up,” which appears in 1 Thessalonians 4:17."
http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/eschatology/four_views (Page 3 of Suzi's thread)
24 Jan 15
Originally posted by josephwHey, Joe, did you change your avatar for the occasion of this thread?
[b]"What is the meaning of 'twinkling of an eye'?"
1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The amount of time it takes light to pass threw the retina.[/b]