Originally posted by josephwOh, I do believe there will be a Rapture event, I always did. I just thought it would happen after the Great Tribulation, shortly after Christ returns and after his battle with the forces of the AntiChrist. I never really believed in the big, huge pre-Trib Rapture as portrayed, for example, in Tim LaHaye's books.
Have you come to a conclusion yet?
Do you believe yet that there is in fact a so-called "rapture" of the church?
I think the "when" of it is still up for debate!
I'm questioning my beliefs now, though. And whether the pre-Tribulation Rapture makes sense to me now, given some other things I've been led to understand about the events in Revelation. I never really understood the meaning of Dispensationalism, until recently, that is, and it appears that I am indeed a dispensationalist. This makes the idea of a pre-Tribulation Rapture, the purpose of which is to remove Christians from the Earth to protect them from God's wrath, not too crazy to me, even though I've always rejected it before. As of this moment in time, I'm leaning towards both events being true, as sonship has written about previously (i.e. both a pre-Trib Rapture and a post-Trib Rapture-like event).
Originally posted by SuzianneOkay.
I think you'd get no argument from Ron about this, but I'm fairly certain that he believes they will happen consecutively (first the Second Advent and then the Rapture, both immediately post-Tribulation) and not seven years apart. (This is what I believed for years.) I'm interested to hear what he says about it; I don't mean to speak for him.
Originally posted by RBHILLIf I read Revelation correctly, this happens shortly after the Beast overwhelms the two witnesses and kills them (well, three days after their deaths, when they are taken up to Heaven) and a short time before the Beast receives his "mortal wound" that he recovers from and begins the Great Tribulation period of 42 months. I understand that upwards of 7,000 people are killed immediately at this time and I'm not sure where a "mid-Trib rapture" would occur. Look, I'm barely on board with a pre-Trib rapture, I'm not sure I can go along with a mid-Trib rapture as well (or instead).
Could this mean the seventh trumpet out of Revelation
chapter 11:15-19. So it could be a mid-rapture?
The Seventh Trumpet Brings the Third Terror
15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices shouting in heaven:
“The world has now become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,
and he will reign forever and ever.”
16 ...[text shortened]... tning flashed, thunder crashed and roared, and there was an earthquake and a terrible hailstorm.
Originally posted by josephwYes, I thought this also.
Some believe that "the last trump" of Revelation, and the "trump of God" in 1 Thessalonians 4, and "the last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15 are the same "trump".
They may be. I don't know for sure. I think RJ thinks they are. That's ok!
God knows.
I'm leaning away from this, closer to the mainstream idea of a pre-Trib rapture as well as this "last trump". I see no reason why both cannot happen, it's not entirely an "either/or" thing as I once thought.
Originally posted by SuzianneYou should address this to "the Revelation is fantasy!! Are you people crazy?? crowd" that you perceive. I have said nothing of the sort.
I don't mean disrespect. But I'm not going to have my thread diluted by the "Revelation is fantasy!! Are you people crazy??" crowd. That's not why I created it. If you want to have this discussion, create your own thread.
Originally posted by SuzianneShallow Blue has made some interesting points. If you were genuinely seeking "to discuss this topic seriously while also educating others about it" you would deal with them properly rather than dismiss and dodge what he actually said with a slew of personal remarks.
I can't be expected to discuss this topic seriously while also educating others about it.
The Church Age: At the Ascension of Christ, He was seated at the right hand of the Father to await the completion of His Church Age Royal Family. Here are three relevant passages of scripture from John and Acts which reveal this event:
John 14:16-17 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you."
John 16:7-15 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the [a]Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. 12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you."
"Footnotes: a.John 16:7 Gr Paracletos, one called alongside to help; or Comforter, Advocate, Intercessor."
Acts 1:5 "... for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized [a]with the Holy Spirit [b]not many days from now.”
"Footnotes: a. Acts 1:5 Or in. b. Acts 1:5 Lit not long after these many days."
_________________________________
When the Royal Family is formed [those who are His] the Dispensation of the Church Age will end and all believers in Christ will be transferred to heaven. 1 Corinthians 15:23 "But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming.." The Koine Greek word: "exsanatasis" describes the moment that this exit event will occur.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [a]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive [b]and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord." "Footnotes: a. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 Or cry of command; b. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Lit who." https://www.biblegateway.com/passage (NASB)
Originally posted by SuzianneI believe there will be some Christians suffering through the Great Tribulation. But scripture tells us that those that endure to the end will be saved. If there is a pre-tribulation rapture, I will be happy to be wrong.
You surprise me, Ron. I had you pegged as a pre-Trib Rapture guy.
This is what my stance on it was, too, that the only Rapture we'd be seeing is when Christ comes back to reclaim His people, as the Warrior-Messiah the Jews have been expecting for thousands of years. So you can imagine how uncomfortable I now feel now that I'm just not sure about the po ...[text shortened]... tians will also be made to suffer through the coming Great Tribulation along with everyone else?
Originally posted by SuzianneYes, I'm an agnostic. If you can't explain your beliefs to someone who was brought up as an Anglican then I think they are rather fragile.
You're not a Christian, are you? I think I remember you saying something once about your belief not being the 'full-on' belief of the Christians, but rather an 'agnostic type' of belief.
Again, this is why I invited Christians to take part in this discussion. I have yet to see or hear of a non-Christian who even understands this bit of dogma, much less ...[text shortened]... l. He wants to discuss it with other fans, not someone who has no clue what basketball even is.
You've avoided the more important questions I was asking. First why a European? The number of the beast is variously 666 or 616, the theory about this that I find most convincing is the one based on Gematria (turning words into numbers). The Emperor Nero's Greek title when translated into Hebrew and then converted into a number yields 666 and the Latin version produces 616, which neatly explains why some early texts have 616 as the number of the beast [1]. If you are going to regard Revelation as predictive then that would make the AntiChrist a reincarnation of Nero - this was not an uncommon belief at the time, there were at least three imposters claiming to be Nero's reincarnation in the Eastern Roman Empire. There is no reason to believe that just because Nero was Roman that he would come back in Rome. Why not an American politician? It would make more sense as currently the US is the most powerful country.
The other question is more mundane. Are you really going to live your life differently? In life we face all sorts of hardships, including normal human wars, and it is possible for one's personal world to fall apart and one's personal ethics to be stretched by circumstance. So I don't see what the point of being prepared for it is. If you regard the tribulation as some kind of test then why is this only something that the people around at the time have to face? Since we all die in the end and, if Christianity is right, have to meet our maker and will face judgement with or without a tribulation what difference does it make?
I suppose what I'm saying is: "It's the end of the World, so what?"
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_beast#Nero
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 6)Following the Rapture in Heaven: Every Church Age believer will be immediately transformed from a temporal body of corruption to an eternal body of incorruption: 1 Corinthians 15: 42-43 "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown
The Church Age: At the Ascension of Christ, He was seated at the right hand of the Father to await the completion of His Church Age Royal Family. Here are three relevant passages of scripture from John and Acts which reveal this event:
John 14:16-17 [i]"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you ...[text shortened]... :16 Or cry of command; b. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Lit who." https://www.biblegateway.com/passage (NASB)
[a]a perishable body, it is raised [b]an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;" "Footnotes: a. 1 Corinthians 15:42 Lit in corruption; b. 1 Corinthians 15:42 Lit in incorruption."
This new body will be "like Him", a recognizable body of flesh and bones that is free from the sin nature: 1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears,
we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is."
Also: Philippians 3:20-21 "For our [a]citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform [b]the body of our humble state into conformity with [c]the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself." "Footnotes: a. Philippians 3:20 Lit commonwealth; b.Philippians 3:21 Or our lowly body; c. Philippians 3:21 Or His glorious body."
Immediately following the Rapture believers will experience unimaginable happiness, celebration and a reunion of the entire Royal Family together for the first time face to face with Jesus Christ who will lead the royal procession to heaven. (1 of 2) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage (NASB)
Originally posted by SuzianneStudy it closely. I believe you'll find that the "post trib rapture" isn't a rapture at all, instead it is the resurrection of the Old Testament saints that occurs 45 days after Jesus' second coming.
Oh, I do believe there will be a Rapture event, I always did. I just thought it would happen after the Great Tribulation, shortly after Christ returns and after his battle with the forces of the AntiChrist. I never really believed in the big, huge pre-Trib Rapture as portrayed, for example, in Tim LaHaye's books.
I'm questioning my beliefs now, though. ...[text shortened]... has written about previously (i.e. both a pre-Trib Rapture and a post-Trib Rapture-like event).
The "rapture" is exclusively a church event. Everyone is a dispensationalist of one kind or another. Sonship believes in one Church made up of all saints of all time. I believe that the "Body of Christ", the Church comprised of all the believers during this present dispensation of grace is a separate entity from the saints associated with Israel and the Kingdom of God on this earth and the prophetic.
This present dispensation of grace in which we live is unprophesied of in the prophetic scriptures, and its content is composed of Paul's epistles and relative to the church age as apposed to the prophetic which is in association with Israel and the kingdom on earth.
Originally posted by josephwI'm in the midst of further study. And this is why my wording has changed from a "post-Trib Rapture" to a "post-Trib rapture-like event" with the "pre-Trib Rapture" being the main deal. I'm keeping in mind that most of the Christians left to "endure" the Tribulation (the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation, 12,000 per tribe) are going to be Messianic Jews, God's people, finally brought to Christ during the Tribulation, and they will have to be "taken up" and they will be "changed" also (those who are not "martyred", anyway, probably considerably less than half of those 144,000). (1 Corinthians 1:50-51).
Study it closely. I believe you'll find that the "post trib rapture" isn't a rapture at all, instead it is the resurrection of the Old Testament saints that occurs 45 days after Jesus' second coming.
The "rapture" is exclusively a church event. Everyone is a dispensationalist of one kind or another. Sonship believes in one Church made up of all saints of ...[text shortened]... ch age as apposed to the prophetic which is in association with Israel and the kingdom on earth.
Plus, as I said, I am new to "dispensationalism" and the idea of looking at the history of the church in this way. One problem is exactly that all of the dispensations are generally "un-prophesied" in that the theory sort of breaks down except as a way to look back and see what was going on, and fitting together these dispensations into the chain of history.
Originally posted by DeepThought"You've avoided the more important questions I was asking. First why a European? The number of the beast is variously 666 or 616, the theory about this that I find most convincing is the one based on Gematria (turning words into numbers). The Emperor Nero's Greek title when translated into Hebrew and then converted into a number yields 666 and the Latin version produces 616, which neatly explains why some early texts have 616 as the number of the beast [1]. If you are going to regard Revelation as predictive then that would make the AntiChrist a reincarnation of Nero - this was not an uncommon belief at the time, there were at least three imposters claiming to be Nero's reincarnation in the Eastern Roman Empire. There is no reason to believe that just because Nero was Roman that he would come back in Rome. Why not an American politician? It would make more sense as currently the US is the most powerful country."
Yes, I'm an agnostic. If you can't explain your beliefs to someone who was brought up as an Anglican then I think they are rather fragile.
You've avoided the more important questions I was asking. First why a European? The number of the beast is variously 666 or 616, the theory about this that I find most convincing is the one based on Gematria (tu ...[text shortened]... t's the end of the World, so what?"
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_beast#Nero
First things first. I have been trying to avoid this subject as it is really another thread's worth of discussion and I didn't want it to overshadow this discussion of the Rapture. This is another reason why I wanted only Christian discussion, so we could take all this as "known" and not have to waste time getting into it. So I'm not answering this here. I'm going to beg off this for now and create another thread for answering this specific question. It really is more information than this thread was conceived for.
"The other question is more mundane. Are you really going to live your life differently? In life we face all sorts of hardships, including normal human wars, and it is possible for one's personal world to fall apart and one's personal ethics to be stretched by circumstance. So I don't see what the point of being prepared for it is. If you regard the tribulation as some kind of test then why is this only something that the people around at the time have to face? Since we all die in the end and, if Christianity is right, have to meet our maker and will face judgement with or without a tribulation what difference does it make?"
This is so totally not a Christian viewpoint. "eh, what does it matter?" Christians have made the choice to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior because it *does* matter to them. We want to be counted as worthy at the final bell. And we understand that we cannot do this on our own. This is why Jesus was sacrificed at Calvary. To take on our sins and to pay our sin debt because He has beaten Death. We humans are destined to "die once, and then the Judgement". The pure Lamb, the Son of God, could take this sin debt because He had no sin of His own.
The Tribulation to come is the result of the outpouring of God's wrath. The result of His Judgement on a world which has chosen Satan and not God. The Tribulation is not for the Christians, the Gentiles who have been grafted in. The Tribulation is for the Jews, who have been blinded to God's plan, in order that they might also come to the Lord. And yes, it's too bad that such drastic measures have to be taken, but they are indeed a stubborn people. Look at the Babylonian Exile. The Jews had fallen away from God and were thus punished and finally brought back to God with the building of the Second Temple. In these latter days, in order to finally get their attention, and to finally relieve them of their deceiver Satan, this is the why of the Tribulation.
Jesus said, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:13-14) And surely enough, there will be precious few Jews who will come out the other side of the Tribulation on the side of the Christ. 144,000, and more than half of these will not survive to the time of Jesus' return. But these 144,000 souls are still precious to God, representing the final remnant of His people.
As to my own life and my own reasons for understanding the Rapture, I'm not prepared to go into details, but yes, I expect my life to be different with the knowledge than it was before I came to understanding. I'm not planning on being "Left Behind". And at this point in my life, this means some work needs to be done.
Joe and Suzi, we're pretty much in synch with our understandings of the Rapture related subject of Dispensations. Here are several comments on truths I've learned over the adult decades of my life from four pastors who taught the Word of God from the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek in which it was written. Scripture references from notes taken are included; texts themselves will be omitted in the interest of brevity. 1) God's plan for all believers following the moment of salvation is to glorify Him by growing in grace [the renovation of our previous thinking with divine viewpoint which is accomplished by learning Bible Doctrine so that God's purpose for our lives can be fulfilled. (Romans 12:2; Ephesians 1:18; 4:22-24)
2) Bible Doctrine is taught by pastors who have been given the spiritual [academic/communication] gift for teaching the content of the Word of God to their congregations. (Ephesians 4:8, 11-13) Each pastor is responsible before God to diligently study in order to accurately communicate the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15) 3) The standard for determining Bible Doctrine includes interpreting the texts in historical context [its author's intent and audience as well as the time and place in which it was written; categorizing biblical subjects with comparison to all related passages; and exegesis of the scriptures in their original languages]. God has magnified His Word above His name [person]. (Psalm 138: 2). Bible Doctrine is the "mind of Christ". (2 Corinthians 2:16) God's unchanging character and unfailing love are revealed in Jesus Christ. (John 1:18)
3) Dispensations are consecutive periods of human history within God's Plan to reconcile fallen mankind unto Himself. By understanding the doctrine of dispensations believers can align their priorities to God's will [plan and purpose] for their lives. Controversies result when biblical distinctions are ignored. 4) There are three categories and six dispensations: Theocentric (Age of the Gentiles and Age of Israel: Before God had "spoken to us in His Son" Hebrews 1:1-2); Christocentric (Hypostatic Union of Christ and the Church Age); Eschatological or the final destiny of the human race (Tribulation and Millennium).