The Trinity conquers Racism

Originally posted by divegeester
Tell me sonship, does my rejection of your trinity teaching mean that I don't have the spirit of Christ and am therefore not saved?

This thread is not dedicated to the topic of the assurance of personal salvation.

This thread has its focus on the Father-Son-Holy Spirit as the divine Trinity overcoming human divisions damaging the oneness of the Body of Christ, especially the damage of racism.

You may not involve me in your attempt to hi-jack the thread to be about your personal assurance of salvation.

Originally posted by sonship

It is true that in the end all social ills will be conquered but not until Jesus returns and this world is no more.

Elader, there must be a remnant of Christians of the new covenant church who spearhead into the overcoming of social ills in the local churches. If that is not the case anywhere on the earth, the Lord Jesus will no ...[text shortened]... and[/i] clean." (v.14) [/quote]

The wife's wedding garment is also her fighting garment.[/b]

You believe the church on earth is made up of perfect people who will be immune to all of the world's ills? Otherwise Jesus will not return?

Very odd belief that I have never seen before. Especially from a person who does not believe we need to follow Jesus commands.

Very odd indeed. I suppose not for a humanist.

Originally posted by sonship
This thread is not dedicated to the topic of the assurance of personal salvation.

This thread has its focus on the Father-Son-Holy Spirit as the divine Trinity overcoming human divisions damaging the oneness of the Body of Christ, especially the damage of racism.

You may not involve me in your attempt to hi-jack the thread to be about your personal assurance of salvation.

If I start another thread will you answer it there? I mean, after all it's a simple yes or no question.

Originally posted by Eladar

You believe the church on earth is made up of perfect people who will be immune to all of the world's ills? Otherwise Jesus will not return?

If I believed that the church universal was made up of people who are perfect, then I would not believe it necessary for the Lord Jesus to petition His Father that they may be "perfected" in any regard.

I would never dare say I as a Christian am perfected.
Even the Apostle Paul said in [bPhilippians[/b] -

" Not that I have already obtained or am already perfected, but I pursue, ..." (Phil. 3:12)

He goes on to say he forgets the things which are behind and presses on to "gain Christ."

Until we either die or see the Lord Jesus we should have this attitude, that we press on to gain more and more of Jesus Christ wrought into our personality, into our soul.

" ... I have suffered the loss of all things and count them refuse [in comparison] that I may gain Christ" (v.8)

And Paul says as many as are mature should have this same attitude, of always stretching forth to gain more and more of Christ. And he says we should imitate his way and the way of those who have likewise seen this way.

"Let us therefore, as many as are fullgrown, have this mind; ...' (v.15a)

"Be imitators together of me, brothers, and observe those who thus walk even as you have us as a pattern." (v.17)

So we should always be humble to recognize we still need to press on to allow God to work Christ deeper and more into our beings.

This was in the middle of his ministry. Towards the end of his ministry shortly before he was to be martyred his conscience was strong that he had kept the faith. He expected to receive from the Lord a reward as a crown of righteousness.

" I have fought the good fight; I have finished the course; I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, with which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will recompense me in that day, and not only me but also all those who have loved His appearing." ( 2 Tim. 4:8)

I believe that through church history, here and there, now and then individual Christians have had the confidence at the end of their race, that they had run well, kept the faith, and had consciences bold before Christ.

Now at the end of this age before Jesus comes back, He must obtain not some individual spiritual giants, but some critical mass of overcoming believers. In city by city in many localities on all the continents, Christ will get a critical mass of those who corporately are perfected to this level of readiness.

No, Eladar, I am not preaching a doctrine of "sinless perfection".

But the Apostle does say that all the Christians, including Himself, will arrive at the measure of the stature of a full grown man. Now He does not insist that all will arrive at one time or at the same time. He just says "until we all arrive".

" Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,

That we may be no longer little children tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness ... etc. etc. etc. ...

But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ ..." (See Eph. 4:13-15)

Jesus has to have something of a remnant at least, of matured believers who are "inheriting the promises". They are no longer children divided by racism and other divisive things which have warred against the oneness of the Christians.

Like Paul, only on a collective and corporate level, we become ready to meet the Lord Jesus as a wife who has prepared herself.

In this sense, the coming of Jesus Christ is like a coming from TWO directions. He is coming again from above, from heaven. Yet He is also coming again out from within those Christians overcoming the degradation of Christianity and are "inheriting the promises".

The writer of Hebrews knew that some saints in those days were "inheriting the promises" and that the Christians should seek to emulate them.

" That you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and long-suffering are inheriting the promises." (Hebrews 6:12)

Very odd belief that I have never seen before. Especially from a person who does not believe we need to follow Jesus commands.

You cannot quote any post of mine recommending that we do not need to follow the commands of Jesus. Would you produce the quotation written by me which proposes such a teaching ? If not you should retract the false accusation. One or the other you should do.

At least you should point out, from this moment of time until you notice it, my recommending that Christians do not need to follow the commands of Christ.

Very odd indeed. I suppose not for a humanist.

If you think that "Until we all arrive" can only take place after the Lord's coming and perhaps in Heaven, then I am afraid that you are mistaken.

To grow up into Him "in all things" God expects to accomplish in the church age, with at least a remnant who overcome the surrounding degradation. It is the very ONENESS that empowers and is the catalyst to energize the growth of divine life in people.

This is why the Apostle said that the normal church life was a farm for growing Christ in people. And I believe that we have living and functioning local churches on the earth today as farms for growing Christ in believers.

" For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's cultivated land [farm] God's building." ( 1 Cor. 3:9)

So we have a poster who identifies this partition of Christ to His Father as "Humanism". This is very strange.

" That they may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us ..." (John 17:21)

This is seen by Eader as Jesus Christ praying for Humanistic philosophy to be accomplished. To Eader, this is Christ petitioning that a Humanist regime be established.

I am pretty sure that the so-called "Humanist Manifesto" says nothing postive at least about God if it mentions God at all.

That the Christians be "perfected into one". Eader sees as Christ's prayer that Humanism be the philosophy of the Christian church.

Or Eader says, it is Humanism before Christ comes back.
But afterwards it is just God's will.
I am trying to be fair.

So Eader seems to admit that this mighty petition of Christ to His Father did take place.

"I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, ... (v.23)

But for Christians to hope and cooperate with the indwelling Christ that this perfecting take place in the church age before His second coming, is Humanism.

Interestingly, Christ's request though is that this perfecting would take place so that the WORLD around might believe in Christ.

"I in them, and You in Me, that the may be perfected into one, THAT THE WORLD MY KNOW that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me."

This perfecting into oneness seems to be a integral part of the Gospel then.
The world will know that we are His disciples because we love one another.

"By this shall all men know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." (John 15:35)

This is not our natural love.
This is not the Humanistic love we can drum up from our fallen nature.
Niether is this the good ole boy "love" we can muster up because we have similar socio / cultural interests in common.

This is rather Jesus Christ Himself worked into our souls. This is Christ wrought into our beings. This is the love that comes out of God's life permeating us through sanctification and transformation.

This is the agape love conquering Racism brought about Christians in local assemblies everywhere being "perfected into one" in the Triune God, in the Divine "Us".

Some of us should see the vision and not reject Christ's powerful petition on the grounds that we fear we will fall into a Humanistic philosophy.

Originally posted by divegeester
If I start another thread will you answer it there? I mean, after all it's a simple yes or no question.

I guess not. You will just dump a couple more posts of your blurb.

Originally posted by Eladar
You believe the church on earth is made up of perfect people who will be immune to all of the world's ills? Otherwise Jesus will not return?

Very odd belief that I have never seen before. Especially from a person who does not believe we need to follow Jesus commands.

Very odd indeed. I suppose not for a humanist.

Could you not bring your specific brand of misrepresentation from the Debates forum here, please?

Originally posted by sonship
no you're calling the word of God waffle. i am just quoting it on many occasions.

i quote and you ridicule as waffle many passages.

The problem is you quote the Bible and then you give your own interpretation
of what you quote.
You twist the Scriptures.
you and all of us should:
(2 Timothy 2:15) Do your utmost to present yourself approved to God, a workman with nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of the truth aright.
There are Jehovah God the Father, Jesus Christ, His firstborn son, and Jehovah
God's powerful active force, His Holy Spirit.
These work together to accomplish God's will.
They are unified in that pursuit but they are not equal or a trinity.
That's why the word trinity is not in the Bible.

(Philippians 2:6) who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

Originally posted by roigam
The problem is you quote the Bible and then you give your own interpretation
of what you quote.

Isn't that part of the definition of "Christian" and their relationship with their scriptures? And isn't it why there are more than 30,000 denominations in the world, including the non-stock, not-for-profit organization headquartered in New York that you just so happen to be a member of? Didn't your corporation even get its own translation done in order to make it fit your 'unique selling point' doctrines? You'll be telling us you are a True Christian™ next, and that sonship isn't. 😉

Originally posted by FMF
Isn't that part of the definition of "Christian" and their relationship with their scriptures? And isn't it why there are more than 30,000 denominations in the world, including the non-stock, not-for-profit organization headquartered in New York that you just so happen to be a member of? Didn't your corporation even get its own translation done in order to make ...[text shortened]... oint' doctrines? You'll be telling us you are a True Christian™ next, and that sonship isn't. 😉

Anyone who believes in a trinity is not a follower of Jesus Christ.
Jesus did not believe in the trinity and never taught his followers to believe it
As for John 17:21, if you think that shows a trinity you must have failed
arithematic. Jesus is speaking of his followers and says they also are in union with Jesus and the Father. That is not a trinity but a multiple (unnumbered depending on how many disciples are involved) godhead as they are all one.
That makes sense only if Jesus is not talking about who is God but rather how
His Father, himself, and all his followers are one in purpose.

Originally posted by roigam
Anyone who believes in a trinity is not a follower of Jesus Christ.
Jesus did not believe in the trinity and never taught his followers to believe it
As for John 17:21, if you think that shows a trinity you must have failed
arithematic. Jesus is speaking of his followers and says they also are in union with Jesus and the Father. That is not a trinity but ...[text shortened]... about who is God but rather how
His Father, himself, and all his followers are one in purpose.

So no believer in the Trinity will get into the kingdom of
God

Originally posted by Rajk999
So no believer in the Trinity will get into the kingdom of
God

You won't get a straight answer from roigam any more than I will from sonship.

Originally posted by roigam
The problem is you quote the Bible and then you give your own interpretation
of what you quote.
You twist the Scriptures.
you and all of us should:
(2 Timothy 2:15) Do your utmost to present yourself approved to God, a workman with nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of the truth aright.
There are Jehovah God the Father, Jesus Christ, His firstbo ...[text shortened]... sting in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

A JW claiming that others twist the Scriptures.

Okay, now that's rich.

Originally posted by roigam
Anyone who believes in a trinity is not a follower of Jesus Christ.
Jesus did not believe in the trinity and never taught his followers to believe it
As for John 17:21, if you think that shows a trinity you must have failed
arithematic. Jesus is speaking of his followers and says they also are in union with Jesus and the Father. That is not a trinity but ...[text shortened]... about who is God but rather how
His Father, himself, and all his followers are one in purpose.

Talk about 'twisting Scripture'.

Originally posted by Suzianne
A JW claiming that others twist the Scriptures.

Okay, now that's rich.

"...it's not the spoon that bends...there is no spoon..."