22 May 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidExactly, the man is beating around the bush with regard to that. Talk about mindless brown-nosers .
I'm still trying to process:
'The Lord is not building His church in Christendom, which is composed of the apostate Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant denominations. This...is being fulfilled through the Lord's recovery, in which the building of the genuine church is being accomplished...Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, as well as Judaism, all [have] become an organization of Satan.'
22 May 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidsonship, is the Orthodox Church an organization of "Satan" too?
'The Lord is not building His church in Christendom, which is composed of the apostate Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant denominations. This...is being fulfilled through the Lord's recovery, in which the building of the genuine church is being accomplished...Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, as well as Judaism, all [have] become an organization of Satan.'
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22 May 19
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Lee is not Paul. Not by a long shot.
By this do you mean that you admire the service of the apostle Paul on behalf of the Christian church ?
Should I take your comment to be roughly -
"Now the Apostle Paul is okay in what he labored and served for Christians. But this Witness Lee person is doing a fundamentally different work for the world and Christians." ?
Is this what you are saying ?
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22 May 19
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I'm still trying to process:
You may be still trying to "process" it because you haven't read enough. And you don't WANT to look into it deeply but only superficially.
Like the Bible says in Ecclesiastes "Money solves everything". A man who wants to read no further then that may complain -
"I am still trying to process that God's word says money solves everything." (Ecc;. 10:19)
New International Version
A feast is made for laughter, wine makes life merry, and money is the answer for everything.
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22 May 19
@FMF
How do you know that you lack a belief in God ?
Perhaps you SUPPRESS a belief in God is what you really mean.
22 May 19
@sonship saidI was a Christian for almost three decades and I have completely lost my faith in the Christian notion of God. It was a gradual and clear-sighted process involving no trauma or regret.
@FMF
How do you know that you lack a belief in God ?
Perhaps you SUPPRESS a belief in God is what you really mean.
I am now an agnostic atheist, as I have explained before. I may have suppressed my lack of belief for a few years during the process of losing my faith a.k.a. clinging on. I am not suppressing a belief in God now.
I am not in the slightest bit confused about my lack of faith. A lot of the convoluted dogma you post here has the effect of keeping my lack of faith crystal clear and very real.
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22 May 19
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This thread has shown the writings of Lee in their full absurdity,
What book by Witness Lee have you read all the way through?
and not delivered and cherry-picked here by yourself. (As has been the case for many years).
What is wrong with picking portions here to quote and portions there to quote?
Is there something wrong with "picking" portions of a man's books to refer to ?
I have learned things about Lee (and Nee) that I was completely unaware of which lead me to seriously question your judgment and susceptibility.
What is the top most TWO things you have learned that lead to this doubt of my judgment?
Give me your two STRONGEST examples from the writings of Watchman Nee and or Witness Lee.
The Apostle John taught that THE WHOLE WORLD lies in the evil one - Satan.
First John 5:19
"We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the evil one."
So if the New Testament says that "the whole world" lies in the Devil, why should you be shocked if too much of "the world" has an influence over the ECCLESIA (called one assembly) SUCH THAT the Devil gains too much control over organized religion DAMAGING the ECCLESIA ?
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22 May 19
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Ghost,
Once again, as far as I recall you gave NO ... alternative good interpretation to Christ's parable of the WHOLE LUMP of flour being mixed with corrupting LEAVEN in the parable of Matthew 13:33.
"Another parable He spoke to them: The kingdom of the heavens is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal until the whole was leavened."
Do you also question the judgment and susceptibility of Jesus Christ for saying this ?
Why have you not submitted an ALTERNATIVE interpretation to that which Witness Lee and others have given saying this stands for the corruption of Christianity by worldliness and Satan's influence ?
You should do ONE or THE OTHER.
Give an alternative way of interpreting this parable OR
condemn Jesus along with Witness Lee.
Even when we have Lee directly accusing Christians of being in an organization of Satan, 'EVEN THEN' you battle to mitigate and justify his words.
Your point is not that strong because Lee is warning about something which is so much a part of us that we ALL who pursue Christ must be aware, on guard and vigilantly stand against wherever we meet.
I would suggest you use the Search Engine and look up the phrase "What about us?"
Over the many years I repeatedly heard Witness Lee, when giving a frank word about Catholicism or Protestantism of organized religion would so often then turn the spot light on churches under his ministry, asking ...
"What about us?" As if there is no automatic exemption for the believers in the local churches that they COULD NOT be plagued by the saime influence that has damaged the denominations.
YOU in your zeal to condemn him based on YOUR cherry picked quotations have misunderstood his overall frankness.
And if I tell you that the call for some who HEAR in the seven churches is to OVERCOME the surrounding problems, in each case of the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3, means no church was automatically exempt from these dangers. ... well, I think it goes over your head.
Now in your next post to me, explain something: If for "the whole world lies in the evil one" it is impossible that the world could have such inroads into the church such as to DAMAGE it why is there such a problem with organized religion at times?
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22 May 19
@sonship said1. You are a Christian who is willing to absorb a teaching that views Christianity as an organization of Satan. (A teaching that isn't condemning the 'whole world' to Satan, but Christians and Jews specifically).
What is the top most TWO things you have learned that lead to this doubt of my judgment?
Give me your two STRONGEST examples from the writings of Watchman Nee and or Witness Lee.
The Apostle John taught that THE WHOLE WORLD lies in the evil one - Satan.
2. You fail to recognize a wolf in sheep's clothing, despite biblical warnings to do so.
These are my two strongest examples of your poor judgment when it comes to the writings of Watchman Nee and or Witness Lee.
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22 May 19
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1. You are a Christian who is willing to absorb a teaching that views Christianity as an organization of Satan. (A teaching that isn't condemning the 'whole world' to Satan, but Christians and Jews specifically).
I showed you that I am also a Bible reader who admits the Babylon was under the control of idol worshipping Satan YET some of God's PEOPLE were trapped there and Daniel ( a very spiritual servant of God ) was there too.
How about, now ... how about we look at the problem in BALANCE to ALL of the things involved ?
WItness Lee on standing on the shoulders of other Christians who were in the damaged traditional Christianity regardless.
Why are we the most blessed? It is because we stand upon the shoulders of all those who have gone before. Noah stood upon the shoulders of Adam. Abraham was upon the shoulders of Noah. Moses was upon Abraham. Then the New Testament saints are upon the shoulders of those from the Old Testament. Today we stand upon the shoulders of Peter, Paul, and Martin Luther. To tell the truth, I wish I had come along later. Then I could stand upon your shoulders; as it is, you are upon mine.
You are in the time of the completing of the Lord's economy. The Lord's recovery today is completing His economy. Before you came into the recovery, I doubt that you saw much of these three matters: Christ in you as the hope of glory, Christ as the all-inclusive One, and the church as the Body with Christ as the Head. I have been in the recovery for over fifty years. My time is nearing the end. There is still something that needs completing. This will fall upon your shoulders. You will continue this completing ministry, which consists primarily of these three items that we have mentioned.
Do you not realize that the "shoulders" of others means others who went before in Christianity ?
"Yes, I recognize this"
Or
"No, I cannot see he means this."
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22 May 19
Lee speaks quite positively of other Christians ( Luther, Madame Guyon, John Wesley, J.N. Darby, the Brethren ) who were not in the development of the local churches.
[My bolding]
We are not in the age of Zinzendorf or the age of John Wesley. At the time of the Reformation in the 1520s, when Luther was raised up, anyone who wanted to serve under a vision had to join himself to Luther. In the seventeenth century anyone who wanted to serve under a vision had to join himself to Madame Guyon. In the eighteenth century anyone who wanted to serve under a vision had to join himself to Zinzendorf. Even John Wesley received help from Zinzendorf. In the nineteenth century J. N. Darby took the lead among the Brethren, and the vision was with him. In the twentieth century the vision came to us.
Witness Lee says he was with the Brethren churches. He often speaks of all he learned about prophecy and allegories from the Brethren teachers.
I am not “selling” myself here, but I would like to make a declaration. I began my relationship with the Lord's recovery in 1925. I fully agreed with the Lord's recovery, but during the first seven and a half years I was not in the Lord's recovery but in the Brethren assembly. It was in 1932 that I officially joined the Lord's recovery. Now, fifty-four years have passed. During the past sixty years, according to my observation and based on my knowledge of the Bible, my experience as a Christian, and my study of Christianity's history and its present condition, I can say with full confidence that the Lord's recovery is serving under the vision. There is no doubt about this.
Crucial Words of Leading in the Lord's Recovery, Book 1: The Vision and Definite Steps for the Practice of the New Way
by Witness Lee
See https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=0325C48E2F
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22 May 19
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2. You fail to recognize a wolf in sheep's clothing, despite biblical warnings to do so.
Was Jesus a wolf in sheep's clothing for telling the parable of the whole lump of flour being corrupted by sneakily added leaven? (Matthew 13:31)
These are my two strongest examples of your poor judgment when it comes to the writings of Watchman Nee and or Witness Lee.
Was Jesus a wolf in sheep's clothing ?
He told the church in Laodicea that He was OUTSIDE of the church knocking on the door to get in !
(Rev. 3:20)
Was Jesus a wolf in sheep's clothing for telling the church in Laodicea that they were "wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked" ? (Rev. 3:17).
Was Jesus a wolf in sheep's clothing for saying the church in Sardis had a name for being living but was DEAD? (Rev. 3:1)
Was Jesus a wolf in sheep's clothing for saying the church in Thyatira was involved in what some called "the deep things of Satan" (Rev. 3:24)
Was Jesus a wolf in sheep's clothing for saying the church in Ephesus had left its first love? (Rev. 2:4)
Was Jesus a wolf in sheep's clothing for saying the church in Pergamos dwelt where Satan's throne was? (Rev. 2:13) .
Was Jesus a wolf in sheep's clothing for having a loud voice in heaven telling God's people to "Come out of her my people" concerning Babylon in (Revelation 18:4) ?
Jesus says that as many as HE LOVES HE REBUKES -
" As many as I love I REPROVE and DISCIPLINE; be zealous therefore and REPENT." (Rev. 3:19)
When Jesus Christ speaks a frank word of the need to repent to His people, does that make Him "a wolf in sheep's clothing"?
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Here we have Ghost-of-a-Duke accusing Witness Lee of being a wolf in sheep's clothing.
But as Ghost is an Atheist, I am afraid that he is a wolf in WOLF'S clothing.
Clearly he is out to destroy the Christian faith and Gospel and church universal by teaching that God doesn't exist.
He needs to repent so he can be saved from being a God's flock opposing WOLF in the clothing OF A WOLF!
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@FMF
What have you got to do with it? If you want to be Ghost's or Dive's tag team partner all it ends up in is you telling us about your LACK of belief, and that ... ,why, you're not here to convince anyone of anything.
A true "Live and let live" atheist troll.
Plenty of people express other ideas here, without harassment from me.
Some are on the offensive to condemn a wise servant of God.
Sure, I'll cross examine them then.
Now, step aside and let me see if Ghost also accuses the Son of God, the Lord Jesus for being "a wolf in sheep's clothing" for His frank rebukes to His OWN Christian church in Revelation.