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09 Jun 14
Originally posted by FabianFnas
The funny thing is that Jesus lied in that very moment. He knew very well that he would resurrect later on, because so said the prophecy. So when the wise guy said "it is finished" it wasn't his end after all. If Jesus was the son of god, that is.
I think rather some other wise guy wrote it down, decennia after. So what it is written what Jesus said or not said is well behind the curtain of non-knowledge.
Reading is not necessarily comprehension, I was recently told.
Jesus saying "It is finished" concerning His redemptive is not in the least effected by His foretelling, predicting, and expecting that He would be raised from the dead.
He did not say "I am finished".
He said "It is finished" as pertaining to His redemptive death for FabianEnas.
He saw the word of redemption to its bitter conclusion, pouring out His blood that you could be saved from bearing the penalty of your sins forever and me mine forever.
"It is finished" pertaining to His substituting Himself for the sins of wolfgang59 and sonhouse, among others (most badly needed by me - sonship).
Substitution takes place when we believe in Jesus Christ.
When the weight of the guilt of one's sins rolls away upon trusting in Jesus, to her surprise she realizes suddenly what burden she has been carrying around for many years unaware.
The night I called upon Jesus to be my Savior I felt suddenly like a flushed toilet. No lie.
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09 Jun 14
Originally posted by twhiteheadTwhitehead, your problem with God is not intellectual.
But not, apparently, the ability to support your claim.
That is a posture, a front, a facade.
Probably you're self deceived yourself.
Intellectual difficulty with God's existence is not your problem.
Your problem, in spite of vigorous protestations, is that you hate God.
You hate God because you consider your autonomy threatened by God.
You hate Him.
Expected pushback - How can you hate something you do not believe is real ?
Someone else may be able to explain that. But you hate God.
Dazzle us all with your atheist reasoning now.
09 Jun 14
Originally posted by sonshipYou seem delusional and are not basing anything you said about me on anything you read in my posts. Its all coming from your hyperactive imagination.
Dazzle us all with your atheist reasoning now.
I am not certain whether it is genuine delusion, or it is just an attempt to distract the thread from the fact that you made a ridiculous claim and cannot support it. I suspect the latter considering the amount of anger in your post and the total lack of relevance to the thread.
09 Jun 14
Originally posted by sonshipSo, the only thing he said was "It is finished", nothing more. The rest is a interpretation, yours as good as mine.
[quote] The funny thing is that Jesus lied in that very moment. He knew very well that he would resurrect later on, because so said the prophecy. So when the wise guy said "it is finished" it wasn't his end after all. If Jesus was the son of god, that is.
I think rather some other wise guy wrote it down, decennia after. So what it is written what Jesus sa ...[text shortened]... The night I called upon Jesus to be my Savior I felt suddenly like a flushed toilet. No lie.
What he meant we don't know anything about. This quote wasn't written down at that time, but decennia after, relying only on memory of the unknown writer.
You give me an easy one comparing your divine experience with a toilet. I decline using this freebie, as a courtesy. I wouldn't use the term toilet at all, flushed or not. No lie.
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Originally posted by wolfgang59
OK. Let's hear it.
Because I can't think of anything that isn't taught in primary school.
OK. Let's hear it.
Because I can't think of anything that isn't taught in primary
What wisdom you heard in primary school very likely was something based upon the so-called Judeo / Christian tradition. That certainly would include many of the words of Jesus.
So how are we supposed to be impresses if you boast that you heard the "Golden Rule" for example, in primary school before you heard that Jesus said this? Embedded in US culture are these sentiments derived from the Bible. And it applied to other western countries as well.
Expected Pushback - Yea, but the code of Hammurabi says something like that too.
All truth is God's truth.
And though other teachers may well have said something very much like "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" we have the additional data of the life LIVED by Jesus to consider and compare with other teachers.
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09 Jun 14
Originally posted by twhiteheadI think you are indeed deceived. Somewhere inside you know God is real, but have convinced yourself that he is not.
You seem delusional and are not basing anything you said about me on anything you read in my posts. Its all coming from your hyperactive imagination.
I am not certain whether it is genuine delusion, or it is just an attempt to distract the thread from the fact that you made a ridiculous claim and cannot support it. I suspect the latter considering the amount of anger in your post and the total lack of relevance to the thread.
I think like most atheist, you will not be held accountable for anything.
You exalt your self above God and that is who you serve, self.
09 Jun 14
Originally posted by checkbaiterAgain, is this based on anything in my posts, or is it a product of your imagination? Also is it in any way relevant to the thread, or is this shared embarrassment of your fellow Christian who made a ridiculous claim that he cannot support?
I think you are indeed deceived. Somewhere inside you know God is real, but have convinced yourself that he is not.
I think like most atheist, you will not be held accountable for anything.
You exalt your self above God and that is who you serve, self.
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Originally posted by FabianFnas
So, the only thing he said was "It is finished", nothing more. The rest is a interpretation, yours as good as mine.
What he meant we don't know anything about. This quote wasn't written down at that time, but decennia after, relying only on memory of the unknown writer.
You give me an easy one comparing your divine experience with a toilet. I declin ...[text shortened]... sing this freebie, as a courtesy. I wouldn't use the term toilet at all, flushed or not. No lie.
So, the only thing he said was "It is finished", nothing more. The rest is a interpretation, yours as good as mine.
Did I say that the only thing He said was "It is finished" ? Of what use is it to jump to the conclusion that Jesus said nothing else ?
His own words indicate that He considered His death to be redemptive and that AFTEWARDS He would be resurrected.
Right here:
"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
No one takes it away from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it again. This commandment I received from My Father." (John 10:17,18)
And many, many other places confirm that He expected to do a work that would finish with His crucifixion but He would rise again afterwards to continue other aspects of His total ministry.
What he meant we don't know anything about. This quote wasn't written down at that time, but decennia [sic] after, relying only on memory of the unknown writer.
We do know what He meant.
Some may not LIKE the implications of what He meant.
And these may seek refuge from what He meant in all manner of safe havens of obscurity, higher textural criticism, and other speculations.
But plenty of us know exactly what He meant by "It is finished."
We know ENOUGH to be saved by God.
We have ADEQUATE insight into His words to come into contact with the living God through Christ.
We may not EXHAUSTIVELY appreciate "It is finished". But we certainly have ADEQUATE insight to make a decision to trust His redemptive work on our behalf.
And in a culture where word of mouth tradition was highly prized, it is easy for us to under appreciate how well people committed things to memory. Oral transmition with accuracy was highly prized.
So the reason of there not being a video or tape recorder handy is really not a good reason to doubt the accuracy of recollection of the disciples.
Lastly, the evidence is strong that the apostles were quite insistent and vigilant that what the Master had actually taught would be passed on WITHOUT corruption. Wishful thinking on the skeptic's part is that they were lazy minded and haphazard about accurately relating what Jesus had said.
And example of this is seen in the Apostle John discriminating what was an erroneous saying that circulated among the disciples which Jesus did NOT actually SAY.
" This word therefore went out among the brothers, that that disciples would not die, Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but IF I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you ?
This is the disciple who testifies concerning these things, and the one who has wrotten these things; and we know that his testimony is true." (John 21:23,24)
So you see that the writer of the Gospel of John is exacting, diligent and specific to correct a misunderstanding about what Jesus actually SAID as opposed to what merely circulated among the Christian brothers about what He supposedly said.
So we have good reason to believe they were more concerned with an accurate transmission of the actual deeds and words of Jesus then the higher critics imagine.
You give me an easy one comparing your divine experience with a toilet. I decline using this freebie, as a courtesy. I wouldn't use the term toilet at all, flushed or not. No lie.
Do not break your arm patting yourself on the back that you have been lenient.
Compared to the holiness, righteousness, glory, and moral perfection of Jesus Christ not only were my accumulated sins like an unflushed toilet, but yours also.
It is quite another matter to not REALIZE that compared to the Son of God your life is indeed like a toilet that has been used and not flushed for years.
Christ is the Divine Drano, among many many other things.
You may not realize what has accumulated in your heart and is still building up.
09 Jun 14
Originally posted by sonshipThat is the funniest post I've read in a long time. Truly extraordinary.
Twhitehead, your problem with God is not intellectual.
That is a posture, a front, a facade.
Probably you're self deceived yourself.
Intellectual difficulty with God's existence is not your problem.
Your problem, in spite of vigorous protestations, is that you hate God.
You hate God because you consider your autonomy threatened by God.
Y ...[text shortened]... ay be able to explain that. But you hate God.
Dazzle us all with your atheist reasoning now.
09 Jun 14
Originally posted by sonshipThis sound very much as an interpretation to me.So, the only thing he said was "It is finished", nothing more. The rest is a interpretation, yours as good as mine.
Did I say that the only thing he said was [b]"It is finished" ? Of what use is it to jump to the conclusion that Jesus said nothing else ?
His own words indicate that He considered His death to be redemptive an ...[text shortened]... her things.
You may not realize what has accumulated in your heart and is still building up.[/b]
What he said and what he didn't say we know nothing about.
We only know what the (unknown) writer wrote, and what he wrote is probably what he thought, or remembered if he was an eyewitness, Jesus said. Nothing more. And we shouldn't treat it as more than that.
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Originally posted by FabianFnas
This sound very much as an interpretation to me.
It is an interpretation - an accurate one.
Do you have reasons to demonstrate "It is finished" from the mouth of Jesus Christ meant something else ?
What is your interpretation then ?
What he said and what he didn't say we know nothing about.
I don't think this is true.
I rather believe the Evangelist that not EVERYTHING Jesus said and did was written in his Gospel. But certain things were selected to record so that we could get a good picture of His ministry -
"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that not even the world itself could contain the books written." (John 21:25)
"Moreover indeed many other signs also Jesus did before His disciples, which are not written in this book. But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing, you may have life in His name." (20:30,31)
We only know what the (unknown) writer wrote, and what he wrote is probably what he thought, or remembered if he was an eyewitness, Jesus said. Nothing more. And we shouldn't treat it as more than that.
This seems to me "The incompetent God Theory". That is that somehow God didn't have the skill to see to it that the words of His Son would be passed down to generations following His ascension.
This is like expecting that God needed to hire a consulting firm to advize the Almighty how to record the most important words and life ever lived on the earth.
This is foolishness. I think these are excuses to distance oneself from the impact of those words.
"Well, I don't know what Christ really said."
I rather take the Gospels as True Propaganda. The fact that the writers were out to convince does not prove they are mistaken or lying. There is such a thing as wanting to propagate good news of an important event accurately.
Higher critics who insist that the real message surely got all lost because of human errors unforseen by God, are telling me more about themselves than about the Gospels.