06 Dec 05
Originally posted by KneverKnightI actually don’t think I believe in free will, if by that is meant unconstrained, or unbounded, choice. Some things about my existence have been and are determined; some circumstances that I confront seem to admit of only a single determined outcome (or, at best, a constrained set of possible outcomes, determined by the circumstance). There are still “openings” or “areas of uncertainty” in which I can make (am compelled to make?) decisions; the outcomes of those decisions are a priori indeterminate. The phrase I learned in economics is “constrained choice.”
If God is the Creator of All Things, then of course there is no free will but His.
We are puppets!
And this regardless of the existence of a creator God.
06 Dec 05
Originally posted by KneverKnightActually, I think it is the other way around.
If God is the Creator of All Things, then of course there is no free will but His.
We are puppets!
God desires choices, free choices, puppets only do what the strings
pulling on them demand, trash only floats down stream, but when a
choice is made strings holding one in place will be broken with God's
help, the flood waters of the stream pushing everything down stream
will not hold back one swimming against it with God's help too.
Kelly
06 Dec 05
Originally posted by vistesdWell yes, you are born with a particular set of genes into some economic circumstance which limits your choices, but you still have free will within these constraints.
I actually don’t think I believe in free will, if by that is meant unconstrained, or unbounded, choice. Some things about my existence have been and are determined; some circumstances that I confront seem to admit of only a single determined outcome (or, at best, a constrained set of possible outcomes, determined by the circumstance). There are sti ...[text shortened]... in economics is “constrained choice.”
And this regardless of the existence of a creator God.
I think ...
There was a commercial for KFC on tv where a woman walks into a clearing in the woods bearing a very large table cloth and casts it down, creating a setting for a very large party. In the commercial, the table cloth unrolls perfectly, creating an inviting setting.
What if the woman was God? What if the tablecloth was an embroidery that She created with every event that was going to happen already stitched in? A work of art.
I have to say this thread has been thought provoking: if there is a God that created everything, then surely there is no free will and we are all puppets.
06 Dec 05
Man is free to act according to the confines of his nature. He has free will to act as his nature allows.
We are born with a sin nature, and therefore have free will to act according to that nature. However, as the Holy Spirit works within us, He has the power to overcome that nature.
When we're saved, we receive a new nature. At that point, we have free will to act according to the new nature. That is, we have the power to overcome sin. Not that we always do, but it is possible. Actually, we still have the old nature as well, so we still fail at times.
In summary, man, in his free will, will always act in the confines of his nature. Only God can overcome that.
06 Dec 05
Originally posted by KneverKnightI get your point, and it's a good one. I just wanted to take the opportunity to put some natural constraints on the concept of free will, that's all.
Well yes, you are born with a particular set of genes into some economic circumstance which limits your choices, but you still have free will within these constraints.
I think ...
There was a commercial for KFC on tv where a woman walks into a clearing in the woods bearing a very large table cloth and casts it down, creating a setting for a v ...[text shortened]... here is a God that created everything, then surely there is no free will and we are all puppets.
On the other hand, No.1 Marauder had a lovely comment in another thread about a God who is a bit of a gambler, who decides to take risks, who doesn't know all the outcomes...
06 Dec 05
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Originally posted by vistesdI have a question, I guess two questions for you.
I get your point, and it's a good one. I just wanted to take the opportunity to put some natural constraints on the concept of free will, that's all.
On the other hand, No.1 Marauder had a lovely comment in another thread about a God who is a bit of a gambler, who decides to take risks, who doesn't know all the outcomes...
Do you think is is possible for God to be fair even if He knew the
outcome, or the only way to be fair is if God didn't know? Can God
be honest and all knowing at the same time?
Kelly
06 Dec 05
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Originally posted by KellyJayBig question(s)! I would say, tentatively anyway, that God would have to not know in order to be fair. (I am trying to avoid the Calvinist double-predestination plot here.) That, however, raises a whole host of other questions—salvation versus condemnation, for one—depending on ones’ understanding of God…
I have a question, I guess two questions for you.
Do you think is is possible for God to be fair even if He knew the
outcome, or the only way to be fair is if God didn't know? Can God
be honest and all knowing at the same time?
Kelly
EDIT: Oh, I only answered the first one. You've presented quite a dilemma here... I have to preface anything I say by making clear that I do not take the Bible literally, or as the "Word of God." So, from my point of view, I'm not sure that God's "honesty" is an issue. When I use the word God (which I do), I mean something akin to Brahman in Advaita Vedanta (though not exactly the same). The ground of our being, as opposed to a being outside the natural cosmos. I'll stop here, just so you have a chance to read this while I continue to think. Excellent questions!
06 Dec 05
Many on here seem to be missing a very simple point. There have been many arguments given. Dr. S is very logical with his, and as far as human logic goes, his conclusions are good.
However, the question is, what does Scripture say? Does it teach the omniscience of God? The answer is, "YES!" For example, "Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, 'Who is it you want?'" (John 18:4). Jesus couldn't possibly KNOW ALL that was going to happen to him unless he was omniscient (If you don't believe in his deity, then the alternative is that an omniscient being game him the knowledge).
And I could cite many other passages to build the case clearly that GOD IS OMNISCIENT ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES.
Now, if you accept the Scriptures, then go from there. But stop trying to determine IF God is omniscient from your own arguments. He is! What you need to do is bring the rest of your beliefs inline with that TRUTH.
Now, if you don't believe Scripture, and therefore don't take the Bible's word that God is omniscient, then really, I'm not sure why you're even discussing this particular topic.
06 Dec 05
Originally posted by KneverKnightI guess that’s what we try to do with concepts like omnipotent, omniscient, etc., etc.
I wonder if we'll ever construct the perfect God.
Something I quoted in the “Hebrew Henotheism” thread:
Jews have varying concepts of God: transcendent/immanent, personal/impersonal, theistic/monistic,** masculine/feminine, etc., etc. Jewish scholar David S. Ariel, in his What Do Jews Believe, says: “Each of these views is an authentic Jewish view. They are authentic because they are honest attempts by Jewish thinkers to explore ideas about God within the context of Jewish tradition….Perhaps the diversity of Jewish points of view on God demonstrates that genuine certainty and knowledge of God are impossible….Judaism is a spiritual force whose sacred myths and ritual; are based on successive attempts throughout the course of human history to find answers to the fundamental questions of human life and its meaning. Each generation understands God in its own terms and based on what it has received from earlier generations. The sacred myths generated by Jews throughout history are the ways in which our people have struggled to make sense of God and how God relates to us. The sacred myths, the bedrock of our deeply held beliefs and convictions, will continue to be refined, modified, revisited, and reformulated.” (p. 14; my italics)
That is why I have come to appreciate the openness of that approach.
06 Dec 05
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Originally posted by joelekThis necessitates denying that humans have free will, and accepting that we only experience an illusion of it. You cannot believe both that God is omniscient and that humans have free will. If you accept one as true, you must deny the other.
But stop trying to determine IF God is omniscient from your own arguments. He is! What you need to do is bring the rest of your beliefs inline with that TRUTH.
06 Dec 05
Originally posted by joelekNow, if you don't believe Scripture, and therefore don't take the Bible's word that God is omniscient, then really, I'm not sure why you're even discussing this particular topic.
Many on here seem to be missing a very simple point. There have been many arguments given. Dr. S is very logical with his, and as far as human logic goes, his conclusions are good.
However, the question is, what does Scripture say? Does it teach the omniscience of God? The answer is, "YES!" For example, "Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen ...[text shortened]... God is omniscient, then really, I'm not sure why you're even discussing this particular topic.
You’re making an assumption there about Scripture that not all theists (even all Christians) make. I understand the assumption, and I’m not being critical of it—I grew up, and spent most of my life as a sola scriptura Christian. Now we may be at impasse if you assign Biblical statements an authority that I do not—and that’s okay: I have reached friendly impasse with a lot of folks on here. But it does not mean that theists (or even non-theists) of other viewpoints, background and traditions (Buddhists, say) can’t sincerely explore these questions.