THE WORD OF GOD

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Also for a Being outside time and space ?

Yes.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
I asked you to give three instances of this, but what you did is take stories out of the Bible, applied your reasoning to them and interpreted them in your own way.

Nowhere does the Bible state that God is not omniscient. Nowhere. The Bible doesn't even give hints in the direction that the Triune God is not omniscient.

Ivanhoe: It is very simple. Either God is or is not omniscient.
There is no in-between. Either He knows everything or He does not
know it (even if He knows an awful lot).

Which does the Church assert is true? Does God know everything that
can be knowable or not?

If the Church asserts that He does, then He knew the outcome of
every situation in advance of its occuring. His testing of Job, for
example, to see if he would remain faithful, would be unnecessary for
a God knew that Job was faithful. Therefore, if God is omniscient, then
He is also a sadist.

If you feel that there is an in-between here, I'd be eager to hear it.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
Ivanhoe: It is very simple. Either God is or is not omniscient.
There is no in-between. Either He knows everything or He does not
know it (even if He knows an awful lot).

Which does the Church assert is true? Does God know everything that
can be knowable or not?

If the Church asserts that He does, then He knew the outcome of
every situation in a ...[text shortened]... a sadist.

If you feel that there is an in-between here, I'd be eager to hear it.

Nemesio

He didn't test Job to find out the result, He did so to display to Satan that people were capable of loving God for who He was, and not material blessings.

I of course believe God is omniscient.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
It will forever remain so because it cannot logically be the case.

Oh brother, you still don't get it do you ?

Originally posted by Nemesio
Ivanhoe: It is very simple. Either God is or is not omniscient.
There is no in-between. Either He knows everything or He does not
know it (even if He knows an awful lot).

Which does the Church assert is true? Does God know everything that
can be knowable or not?

If the Church asserts that He does, then He knew the outcome of
every situation in a ...[text shortened]... a sadist.

If you feel that there is an in-between here, I'd be eager to hear it.

Nemesio

Nemesio: "Ivanhoe: It is very simple. Either God is or is not omniscient."

Of course it is, Nemesio .....

There is no "in between". The only thing I can do is to refer you to my posts about this issue in this thread. Take it or leave it.

Sometimes I have these very strange thoughts about you being a member of Satan's Church ...... 😲 ..... oh well ..... 😕

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Oh brother, you still don't get it do you ?

Do you agree that

1) A necessary condition for knowing something is that that something has been determined.

2) An essential component of the exercise of free will is the ability to partially determine future states of the universe.

If you do, then you must accept that it is logically impossible for beings with free will to exist in a universe that is the object of some entity's omniscience.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Do you agree that

1) A necessary condition for knowing something is that that something has been determined.

2) An essential component of the exercise of free will is the ability to partially determine future states of the universe.

If you do, then you must accept that it is logically impossible for beings with free will to exist in a universe that is the object of some entity's omniscience.

Please, reread my posts about the matter in this thread.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Please, reread my posts about the matter in this thread.

Done. Now answer my question. Do you agree with (1) and (2) or not?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
[b]Nemesio: "Ivanhoe: It is very simple. Either God is or is not omniscient."

Of course it is, Nemesio .....

There is no "in between". The only thing I can do is to refer you to my posts about this issue in this thread. Take it or leave it.

Sometimes I have these very strange thoughts about you being a member of Satan's Church ...... 😲 ..... oh well ..... 😕[/b]

Your posts do not clearly define your position. I do not know
if it is because you do not realize the subtleties of English or
because you want to obfuscate.

Is or is not God omniscient?

Do humans have free will or not?

If your answer is Yes and Yes, then explain the logical contradiction.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
Your posts do not clearly define your position. I do not know
if it is because you do not realize the subtleties of English or
because you want to obfuscate.

Is or is not God omniscient?

Do humans have free will or not?

If your answer is Yes and Yes, then explain the logical contradiction.

Nemesio

There is no logical contradiction.

Knowing what someone will do does not cause them to do it. You are confusing cause and effect.

Originally posted by Darfius


Knowing what someone will do does not cause them to do it.

But it does logically preclude that he can determine that aspect of his future, a logical consequence of which is that he does not have free will but merely experiences an illusion of it.

Originally posted by Darfius
There is no logical contradiction.

Knowing what someone will do does not cause them to do it. You are confusing cause and effect.

You are glossing over the nature of OMNIscient. Knowing what someone will do may not cause them to do it in terms of a catalyst or stimulus. But if you know everything, you certainly and undeniably already know whether they will do it or not. Thus god knew what the outcome of Job's test would be, prior to it's outcome, essentially making the test a foregone conclusion.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
But it does logically preclude that he can determine that aspect of his future, a logical consequence of which is that he does not have free will but merely experiences an illusion of it.

Who else is determining it but him? It is incorrect to say God, since we've established that God knows, but does not cause. So the only other option is that the man is determining to do what God knew he would determine to do since "time" is not linear to God, but something that can be viewed in His existence of eternal "now".

Originally posted by Starrman
You are glossing over the nature of OMNIscient. Knowing what someone will do may not cause them to do it in terms of a catalyst or stimulus. But if you know [b]everything, you certainly and undeniably already know whether they will do it or not. Thus god knew what the outcome of Job's test would be, prior to it's outcome, essentially making the test a foregone conclusion.[/b]

The point of the test was not figure out how it would go, as I've already explained. It was to display to Satan that people choose to love God for who He is, and not just for material blessings.

I really don't see your problems with God's omniscience and how it at all affects free will.

Originally posted by Darfius
The point of the test was not figure out how it would go, as I've already explained. It was to display to Satan that people choose to love God for who He is, and not just for material blessings.

I really don't see your problems with God's omniscience and how it at all affects free will.

Because, if no matter what I choose to do, god knew that I was going to do it and nothing could have avoided it, then I have no decision to make. I could kill myself rather than take this glass of water, or smoke a cigar instead of jumping on one leg, and no matter how wierd or how much I thought I had the free will in the choice, god would already know which one I was going to choose. How can you say this is free will if it is also predetermined?