03 Nov 19
@fmf saidWell, obviously, I cannot point to examples in your life that have shown issues of wrath and blessings. Only you can do that.
In the real world? In the lives that we have experienced and the things we have witnessed? Where?
Citing your religion's folklore/mythology is no more than a weak "the wrath of God has been displayed because ancient books say the wrath of God has been displayed" type argument.
But I do not think that it is difficult to say that everyone experiences wrath, and blessings, in their life.
This is even something that can be quite relative. Not everyone has to incur something extreme to say that it is wrath, nor do they require an equally exceptional, miraculous event to understand what is meant by blessings.
Moreover, again, from Romans 1:
20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
The idea is that we clearly perceive the majesty of creation, and the delicate balance in which all things exist. God is to be found not far away, but in the thorn and the rose that are close and familiar to us all. Indeed, it is only with sophistry and bitter hearts that these things are dismissed.
03 Nov 19
@philokalia saidI don't know of any examples in my life of "the wrath of [your] God" figure being displayed to me.
Well, obviously, I cannot point to examples in your life that have shown issues of wrath and blessings. Only you can do that.
@philokalia saidIf it is not difficult to give examples of "the wrath of God" that "everyone experiences", then why not do so?
But I do not think that it is difficult to say that everyone experiences wrath, and blessings, in their life.
@philokalia saidExamples of the "wrath" that you're talking about, please.
Not everyone has to incur something extreme to say that it is wrath, nor do they require an equally exceptional, miraculous event to understand what is meant by blessings.
@philokalia saidDismissing requests for examples to substantiate your claim - about "the wrath of God" "constantly" being displayed - as only the product of "sophistry and bitter hearts" is a very, very weak stance for you to be taking.
The idea is that we clearly perceive the majesty of creation, and the delicate balance in which all things exist. God is to be found not far away, but in the thorn and the rose that are close and familiar to us all. Indeed, it is only with sophistry and bitter hearts that these things are dismissed.
03 Nov 19
I would point you to what I wrote here:
The idea is that we clearly perceive the majesty of creation, and the delicate balance in which all things exist. God is to be found not far away, but in the thorn and the rose that are close and familiar to us all. Indeed, it is only with sophistry and bitter hearts that these things are dismissed.
The thorns and the roses in all of our lives teach us lessons and are manifestations of wrath and blessings.
One of the issues, though, is that the complex relationship between things is hard to distinguish and can become a pseudoscience in the sense that these things are not purely symmetrical or uniform. For instance, a gangster like Ihor Kolomoyskyi can lead seemingly prosperous and good lives, having far more than we all have, and many of our Saints are martyred or lead exceptionally austere lives, but these, too, are things that ultimately conform to the understanding of wrath and blessing when we look at the metanarrative.
Without the narrative, I am sure it can be hard to see and understand things. But if we stop suppressing the narrative within us, and we start to sincerely desire and seek God, then we can understand what is happening better.
I think it is easy to duck this narrative because it will always be dependent on one's perception of reality, and the emotions that we have as humans. So, there is always room to argue against it.
@philokalia saidSo the thorns on roses are one example of "the wrath of God", am I understanding you correctly?
The thorns and the roses in all of our lives teach us lessons and are manifestations of wrath and blessings.
03 Nov 19
@philokalia saidIn what way is the story of Ihor Kolomoyskyi an example of "the wrath of God"
One of the issues, though, is that the complex relationship between things is hard to distinguish and can become a pseudoscience in the sense that these things are not purely symmetrical or uniform. For instance, a gangster like Ihor Kolomoyskyi can lead seemingly prosperous and good lives, having far more than we all have, and many of our Saints are martyred or lead excep ...[text shortened]... hat ultimately conform to the understanding of wrath and blessing when we look at the metanarrative.
03 Nov 19
@philokalia saidThis stance seems very weak. What is it? It seems to be a refusal to offer any examples because...why? Because it would be too hard to understand? And because I don't "sincerely desire" to have the same beliefs as you? And because I am supposedly "suppressing" the truth? This is very weak preach-to-choir rhetoric.
Without the narrative, I am sure it can be hard to see and understand things. But if we stop suppressing the narrative within us, and we start to sincerely desire and seek God, then we can understand what is happening better.
03 Nov 19
@philokalia saidI don't see any reference to examples of "the wrath of God" here although you said it's not difficult to say what they are and you said they are happening constantly.
I think it is easy to duck this narrative because it will always be dependent on one's perception of reality, and the emotions that we have as humans. So, there is always room to argue against it.
@philokalia saidExamples of "the wrath of God" being constantly displayed in the 21st century please and not an assertion made by somebody or other 2,000 years ago.
Moreover, again, from Romans 1:
20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
My point would be that any type of an example of a wrath of God could be denied by the atheist, as could any example of a blessing, because there is not a context of God for the atheist.
Without the narrative that comes with God, it is hard to say that simplicity and honesty can be considered blessings when there are those who do great evil but lead publicly fulfilling and prosperous lives without God.
For we are a religion defined by our Beatitudes:
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
(Matthew 5:3-12)
Without the given of God, and the notion that there is cosmic justice, it is hard to argue such a point about wrath / blessing of God because the context can be too different. For instance, the man who is a sinner who becomes wildly enriched would think it is a blessing, but if this is somethign that only feeds his greed and ego, it is by these riches that he will be dragged to hell.
Likewise, one could view the life of a monk or nun and see them as leading a life that is full of struggle and hardship. Many people would consider it the wrath of God if they were forced into such a circumstance. But this can be a source of great joy, and the means of deliverance for a Christian.
So, because of the fundamental differences between how we perceive things, we cannot really present wrath or blessing in a context that it will be agreed upon.
03 Nov 19
I would also say that it would not be appropriate for a Christian to take a look at some of the things occurring in the world and say that it is, for a fact, a sign of the wrath of God, as you sometimes see Protestant ministers do.
it is also incredibly inappropriate to take a real person's life and say that things happenign to them are examples of the wrath of God.
While we can say that the wrath of God is made manifest (as is stated in Romans 1:18), both through great and small things, it is not appropriate to take the reality of another or the very public events and preach about them as these are the signs of wrath, especially in a place where no one is receptive to it and it just seems quite disagreeable and only serves to drive people away from God.
While some things can be true, and they can seem like good questions, they are not actually great topics and do not serve a good purpose, especially for certain people.
@philokalia saidYou said it's not difficult to cite examples of "the wrath of God" being on display. And yet, you do seem to be having considerable difficulty.
I would also say that it would not be appropriate for a Christian to take a look at some of the things occurring in the world and say that it is, for a fact, a sign of the wrath of God, as you sometimes see Protestant ministers do.
it is also incredibly inappropriate to take a real person's life and say that things happenign to them are examples of the wrath of God.
...[text shortened]... , they are not actually great topics and do not serve a good purpose, especially for certain people.