Spirituality
07 May 07
09 May 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasOut of curiousity, why do you think that the mere fact that God commands us to X entails that we ought to X?
I mean to say there is not a 'moral code' which we arbitrarily derive from the bible. God's commands are explicit, and they require obedience. A 'moral code', as you've described, is something we 'work out on our own.' But we (believers) don't decide what is right for ourselves using the bible as a mere reference; we go directly to the bible to find G ...[text shortened]... less of whether we are justified by faith or not, we are still meant to obey them.
09 May 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasAnd where do we get "God's" commands from?
I mean to say there is not a 'moral code' which we arbitrarily derive from the bible. God's commands are explicit, and they require obedience. A 'moral code', as you've described, is something we 'work out on our own.' But we (believers) don't decide what is right for ourselves using the bible as a mere reference; we go directly to the bible to find G ...[text shortened]... less of whether we are justified by faith or not, we are still meant to obey them.
A collection of a few books, all written by men, with all the usual language problems, including interpretation and translation. God's commands may be explicit, but man's rendering of them is not. Despite your adamant insistence otherwise, Christians do not agree on a single 'absolute morality'.
You mock the moral codes of the 'godless' as arbitrary, yet you cannot see the arbitrary nature of your own moral code. [If you believe that it is not, you should have good reasons for rejecting the other religions, holy books, biblical interpretations, etc.]
09 May 07
Certain situations you'll (i'll) have to kill someone.
It happens and it's a bad thing when you're the one doin' the killin', even if you "have to."
I've killed. I tell myself I had to. Long sad story .. war.
Regardless, i've killed.
Here's what happens.
You (I) become less human and it becomes easier to kill again.
And then, many years later, some prick brings up the subject and you get to relive it all over again.
Thanks for that.
My advise? Don't kill .. unless you "have to>"
09 May 07
Originally posted by bbarrNote: none of the ethical theories which you cite are grounded in the 'objectivity' of an eternal, supernatural God. I may not be intimately familiar with the richness of secular humanist thought, but I do know that God's authority therein is roundly rejected as a basis for morality. That is the relevant point. Otherwise, I appreciate the lesson.
"Secular Humanism" does not refer to any particular ethical theory. If anything, the term merely applies to a range of secular ethical theories that, generally, take the foundation for morality to be rooted in human well-being. That is, the principles (if any) that the secular humanist endorses will be justified to the extent that they conduce to human well- ...[text shortened]... lar ethical theories out there, you'd find that the spectre of moral relativism is just that.
10 May 07
1 edit
Originally posted by bbarrSurveying the bible, here are some reasons why God should be obeyed:
But why should he be obeyed? Why should he be worshipped, for that matter?
For God's protection (Exodus 23:22), in order to find life (Leviticus 18:5), fear of punishment (Leviticus 26:16), in order to be holy (Numbers 15:40), so all will be well with one's children (Deuteronomy 4:40), to be actively loved by God (Deuteronomy 5:10), in order to enjoy a long life (Deuteronomy 6:2), for God's blessings (Deuteronomy 6:24), to be counted as righteous (Deuteronomy 6:25), out of fear of destruction (Deuteronomy 8:20), in order to love the Lord (Deuteronomy 11:22), to avoid curses (Deuteronomy 28:45), in order to prosper (Deuteronomy 29:9), to be delighted in by the Lord (Deuteronomy 30:10), in order to grow in wisdom (Psalm 111:10), because of Who God is (Psalm 119:55), in order to be joyful (Proverbs 20:18), because it is our duty (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14), in order to glorify God's name (Isaiah 26:8), because God is Truth (Jeremiah 7:28), in order to be a child of God (Ezekiel 11:20), because God is eternal and His kingdom is forever (Daniel 7:14), to be called 'great' in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:19), because those who don't obey are foolish (Matthew 7:26), in order to find eternal life (John 3:36), in order to receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:32), to show the results of salvation (Philippians 2:12), so no fault will be found in you (1 Timothy 6:14), in order to know Christ (1 John 2:3), to be protected from the time of testing (Revelation 3:10), and in order to endure persecution for Christ's sake (Revelation 14:12).
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And some reasons why God should be worshiped:
Because He is faithful (Exodus 4:31), in order know the Lord more intimately (1 Chronicles 28:9), He is good (2 Chronicles 7:3), He is eternal (2 Chronicles 7:3), His love endures forever (2 Chronicles 7:3), in order to turn away His anger (2 Chronicles 30:8), because He is worthy of awe (Psalm 5:7), because He is holy (Psalm 29:2), in order to be in His presence (Psalm 24:6), because He is our creator (Psalm 95:6-7), for one's own good (Jeremiah 32:39), because He is the God of heaven who made the sea and land (Jonah 1:9), because God commands worship (Matthew 4:10), because worship is in the spirit of Truth (John 4:23-24), because God listens to those who worship Him (John 9:31), because worshiping gives God glory instead of men (Acts 12:23), to avoid confusion about God (Romans 1:21), because God is glorious (Romans 1:23), because He is worthy of eternal praise (Romans 1:25), and because true worship is giving oneself to God as a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1).
10 May 07
Originally posted by bbarrI'd be interested to know if you have anything to say on the question of why, or whether (earthly) laws should be obeyed.
But why should he be obeyed? Why should he be worshipped, for that matter?
I could burrow through my old legal theory textbooks if I'd actually been able to stand legal theory. It strikes me as fundamentally the same question. The majority of people tend to accept the general proposition that they ought to obey the laws of the jurisdiction that they live in. They occasionally object to specific laws, but very few people ever challenge the entire system and refuse to recognise they are part of it.
Once in a while, you'll hear stories of someone declaring that they live in their own little fiefdom. They'll give themselves a cute name, stop paying taxes, issue their own postage stamps, etc. Generally this gets them nowhere fast as the far bigger, stronger, internationally recognised jurisdiction they are competing against politely but firmly tells them they have no right to engage in such behaviour.
I guess I'm saying that the universe is God's jurisdiction, and that he doesn't have to be obeyed if you can successfully assert your independence from him and remove yourself from his reach.
10 May 07
Originally posted by orfeoMany laws should be obeyed purely for prudential reasons. Some laws are legitimate, in that there are reasons to obey them that are independent of prudential reasons. I take legitimate laws to be those that we would consent to behind a Rawlsian "veil of ignorance" (with minor modifications to the account, here and there). The point is that I take the legitimacy of laws to be based on the consent of those putatively bound by them. This is where the analogy with Divine Law will break down.
I'd be interested to know if you have anything to say on the question of why, or whether (earthly) laws should be obeyed.
I could burrow through my old legal theory textbooks if I'd actually been able to stand legal theory. It strikes me as fundamentally the same question. The majority of people tend to accept the general proposition that they ought to ob ...[text shortened]... [b]successfully assert your independence from him and remove yourself from his reach.[/b]
Oh, I understand. The fact that God can impose his will on you gives you prudential reasons to obey. Sounds like tyranny to me, since it fails to respect the autonomy of the governed.
10 May 07
Originally posted by SwissGambitAnd where do we get "God's" commands from?
And where do we get "God's" commands from?
A collection of a few books, all written by men, with all the usual language problems, including interpretation and translation. God's commands may be explicit, but man's rendering of them is not. Despite your adamant insistence otherwise, Christians do not agree on a single 'absolute morality'.
You mock t ...[text shortened]... reasons for rejecting the other religions, holy books, biblical interpretations, etc.]
A collection of a few books, all written by men, with all the usual language problems, including interpretation and translation. God's commands may be explicit, but man's rendering of them is not. Despite your adamant insistence otherwise, Christians do not agree on a single 'absolute morality'.
I've never insisted, adamantly or otherwise, that all Christians agree on a single 'absolute morality'. I do agree that misinterpretation of scripture is often the cause of division between believers. However, that is not to say there isn't a crux to Christian faith:
The heart of the Christian faith is a relationship with God. Through Jesus Christ the everyday sinners (ordinary folk) are reconciled to the Father and given the Holy Spirit as a Guide and Helper. It is the Holy Spirit who reveals God's will and gives the believer the willingness to obey. Consequently, a Christian's life is not, as is often falsely characterized by non-believers who don't know any better, an empty religious obedience to rules and regulations out of fear of eternal damnation. The law is living, and the Holy Spirit pours into the hearts of the faithful the pure joy of its fulfillment, which is Jesus Christ. Through Christ, God is immanent in a Christian's spirit and life, and in prayer we gain direct access to the Father and we hear His voice. It is in direct relationship to the Lord where the necessity of obedience is appreciated. Otherwise, the law looks dead and confusion reigns.
You mock the moral codes of the 'godless' as arbitrary, yet you cannot see the arbitrary nature of your own moral code.
I'm not mocking the moral codes of the godless at all. I'm just reiterating what the scriptures say: "We are all infected and impure with sin. When we display our righteous deeds, they are nothing but filthy rags. Like autumn leaves, we wither and fall, and our sins sweep us away like the wind" (Isaiah 64:6). "What sorrow for those who are wise in their own eyes and think themselves so clever" (Isaiah 5:21). "Don’t be impressed with your own wisdom. Instead, fear the Lord and turn away from evil" (Proverbs 3:7). "Fools think their own way is right, but the wise listen to others" (Proverbs 12:15). "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs and tries the hearts" (Proverbs 21:2). "There are those who are clean in their own eyes but are not washed of their filth" (Proverbs 30:12).
[If you believe that it is not, you should have good reasons for rejecting the other religions, holy books, biblical interpretations, etc.]
The good reason I have for rejecting other religions and beliefs, is the direct experience I have of the Lord's presence in my life through Jesus Christ. I am well acquainted with Him and He with me. Peace, love and joy pour forth abundantly into my spirit from His Spirit. I know the Truth, and the Truth has set me free. Outside of that, I have the written word of God, full of promises which the Lord keeps and demonstrates over and over again in my life and in the lives of all believers.
10 May 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasRight, so the reasons that are coherent are overwhelmingly prudential in nature. I was looking more for an actual argument that started with premises about God or his characteristics and entailed that one ought to obey or worship.
Surveying the bible, here are some reasons why God should be obeyed:
For God's protection (Exodus 23:22), in order to find life (Leviticus 18:5), fear of punishment (Leviticus 26:16), in order to be holy (Numbers 15:40), so all will be well with one's children (Deuteronomy 4:40), to be actively loved by God (Deuteronomy 5:10), in order to enjoy a long ...[text shortened]... and because true worship is giving oneself to God as a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1).
10 May 07
Originally posted by bbarrOh, I understand. The fact that God can impose his will on you gives you prudential reasons to obey. Sounds like tyranny to me, since it fails to respect the autonomy of the governed.
Many laws should be obeyed purely for prudential reasons. Some laws are legitimate, in that there are reasons to obey them that are independent of prudential reasons. I take legitimate laws to be those that we would consent to behind a Rawlsian "veil of ignorance" (with minor modifications to the account, here and there). The point is that I take the legiti ...[text shortened]... s to obey. Sounds like tyranny to me, since it fails to respect the autonomy of the governed.
Spiritually speaking, the autonomy of the governed is virtually non-existent.
Before a human being is 'born-again' he is a slave to sin: "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away" (Colossians 2:13). After a person is 'born-again' he is given a limited autonomy between two extremes: "Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law, does that mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living" (Romans 6:16).
The true tyrant is the devil: "Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else" (Ephesians 2:1-3).
God's work is to free us from the devil's grip and give us victory over death: "And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free" (John 8:32). "If the Son sets you free, you are truly free" (John 8:36). "Now you are free from your slavery to sin, and you have become slaves to righteous living" (Romans 6:18).
God allows people the right to disobey, yet also allows them to reap what they sow. In the end, we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. I can think of a few prudential reasons off the top of my head why being a slave to righteousness might be in one's best interest.
10 May 07
Originally posted by bbarrOK, I see where you're coming from. Tomorrow, after a good night's rest, I'll do my best to oblige you.
Right, so the reasons that are coherent are overwhelmingly prudential in nature. I was looking more for an actual argument that started with premises about God or his characteristics and entailed that one ought to obey or worship.
Over and out...