Spirituality
07 May 07
10 May 07
1 edit
Originally posted by epiphinehasSo that's it. (Feel free to correct me if I've got any of this wrong). You believe that all those bloody OT stories really happened, and that God really said and did all the things attributed to him, yet following him brings you joy, so you really couldn't care less how many people he whacked, as long as you have your happiness.
[b]And where do we get "God's" commands from?
A collection of a few books, all written by men, with all the usual language problems, including interpretation and translation. God's commands may be explicit, but man's rendering of them is not. Despite your adamant insistence otherwise, Christians do not agree on a single 'absolute morality'.
I'v ver and over again in my life and in the lives of all believers.[/b]
I mean, you didn't respond to most of the things in my post...it's like you couldn't care less about the issues raised in the thread. I'm really not sure why you're even bothering to participate (other than the usual obligation to defend your faith).
10 May 07
1 edit
Originally posted by bbarrI already acknowledged in a previous post (think it was in this thread) that my position could tend to lead to the conclusion that God is a tyrant.
Many laws should be obeyed purely for prudential reasons. Some laws are legitimate, in that there are reasons to obey them that are independent of prudential reasons. I take legitimate laws to be those that we would consent to behind a Rawlsian "veil of ignorance" (with minor modifications to the account, here and there). The point is that I take the legiti ...[text shortened]... s to obey. Sounds like tyranny to me, since it fails to respect the autonomy of the governed.
I don't have a problem with that. I can remember many years ago my then church minister saying that the kingdom of God was not a democracy. I think this is one of the things that many atheists find so objectionable these days.
I agree that the analogy between laws and Divine Law breaks down. And it breaks down largely because there is a clear and inevitable power imbalance between a finite, limited creation (us) and an eternal creator (God).
I find it genuinely interesting that atheists regard this power imbalance as objectionable and a stumbling block. To me, it's simply a reflection of the natural order of things - assuming that God exists. To argue that the eternal God should somehow be accountable to me makes about as much sense as arguing that a pet parrot should be on the electoral roll, despite its inability to participate in the political process.
Many of you seem to want equality with God to be the starting point of these discussions and regard INequality to be offensive. This inevitably leads to a conception of God that isn't very God-like. The same can be said about wanting autonomy. Autonomy cannot really be the starting point between creator and created. The creator can choose to grant some autonomy (and choose to take it away), but I don't see that the autonomy of the creation can be sensibly regarded as some kind of right which the creator can be criticised for not respecting.
10 May 07
1 edit
Originally posted by NemesioBut what about when Bush orders the deaths of tens of thousands of people. He had a lot of supporters there. Do you support it or do you find the war in Iraq equally morally reprehensible? What about he allies in the second world war? How many did they kill. Is it the number of deaths or the reason behind it that matters?
Well, you've certainly done a good job of demonstrating that many Christians are completely
comfortable with the idea that God can righteously command the deaths of ten thousand people
and still be worthy of adoration.
What a sorry state of affairs!
Nemesio
Also I notice a tendency to expect God to obey his own laws when the Bible says "Thou" and not "we" (though I don't know the Hebrew version I am fairly sure it did not imply God was included). Also "an eye for an eye" and other laws in which the penalty was death clearly contradict the view that all killing is banned, making it likely that it was "murder" that was implied.
10 May 07
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Originally posted by orfeoI never claimed I wanted equality with God, or even that we should get a vote in his laws. But, if he had wanted his laws to be legitimate, he could have decreed in a manner that would be consistent with what his lowly creatures would freely consent to if unbiased and rational (I'm assuming that you've read some political philosophy?). I do not care that God be accountable to me, but I do insist that he be accountable to what's right. Your previous post seemed to indicate that the only thing that gave us a reason to obey his commands was that we were under his power. It is this rationale that smacks of tyranny. Tyranny isn't justified down here, and that doesn't change in the heavens.
I already acknowledged in a previous post (think it was in this thread) that my position could tend to lead to the conclusion that God is a tyrant.
I don't have a problem with that. I can remember many years ago my then church minister saying that the kingdom of God was not a democracy. I think this is one of the things that many atheists find so objectio egarded as some kind of [b]right which the creator can be criticised for not respecting.[/b]
10 May 07
Originally posted by SwissGambitI mean, you didn't respond to most of the things in my post...it's like you couldn't care less about the issues raised in the thread. I'm really not sure why you're even bothering to participate (other than the usual obligation to defend your faith).
So that's it. (Feel free to correct me if I've got any of this wrong). You believe that all those bloody OT stories really happened, and that God really said and did all the things attributed to him, yet following him brings you joy, so you really couldn't care less how many people he whacked, as long as you have your happiness.
I mean, you didn't res ...[text shortened]... re even bothering to participate (other than the usual obligation to defend your faith).
I understand that you are eminently delighted with yourself, believing you've discovered the ultimate reason why you are morally superior to the God of the bible (anything to keep yourself from submitting to Him). Nothing I say is going to change your mind, especially if your overriding goal is to expose Christian's as bloodthirsty genocidal fools. It is you who are blinding yourself; refusing to acknowledge the possibility that a righteous God may have had more than sufficient reason to command the complete destruction of Ai. Yet even the smallest hint of a possibility that Joshua may have been truly righteous for destroying Ai would throw your whole morally superior trip into a tail spin. As a preventative measure you've assumed an unyielding pose of righteous indignation, leaving no room for real discussion of the issue.
So that's it. (Feel free to correct me if I've got any of this wrong). You believe that all those bloody OT stories really happened, and that God really said and did all the things attributed to him, yet following him brings you joy, so you really couldn't care less how many people he whacked, as long as you have your happiness.
Not exactly. Because God is holy I trust that His purposes are just and righteous. "Whatever is good and perfect comes down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow" (James 1:17). "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:5). "Judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil" (John 3:19).
In OT times, every nation of the earth worshiped and sacrificed to idols. More specifically, they worshiped and sacrificed to demons. Baal, for instance, referred to a demonic power whom the majority of non-Jewish people sacrificed their women and children to in that day. Temples to Baal were attended by prostitute priestesses who committed fornication with worshipers while women and children were burned alive in sacrifice to Baal. Not only were these cultures entirely corrupt, they ruled over the entire earth. The Jewish people were 'as grasshoppers' before them. Here is what the bible says about such people:
"But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.
"Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.
"So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.
"Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are back-stabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too" (Romans 1:18-35).
These mighty nations were delivered into the hands of the Jewish people because they were hopelessly wicked, despite the fact that they were much more powerful than the Jews militarily; very much a David and Goliath type scenario.
God is righteous and just, therefore I believe every decision He makes is righteous and just.
10 May 07
2 edits
Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]I mean, you didn't respond to most of the things in my post...it's like you couldn't care less about the issues raised in the thread. I'm really not sure why you're even bothering to participate (other than the usual obligation to defend your faith).
I understand that you are eminently delighted with yourself, believing you've discovered the u just, therefore I believe every decision He makes is righteous and just.[/b]
I understand that you are eminently delighted with yourself...
Not really. I'm frustrated trying to talk with someone that would rather preach irrelevant, flowery sermons full of Bible quotes, in lieu of addressing the topic of discussion.
...believing you've discovered the ultimate reason why you are morally superior to the God of the bible
It's not just me. Everyone who believes that genocide is wrong is morally superior to the Bible God.
Nothing I say is going to change your mind, especially if your overriding goal is to expose Christian's as bloodthirsty genocidal fools.
I don't think they all are - just the ones who cavalierly dismiss the death of thousands without even agonizing over it a little bit.
It is you who are blinding yourself; refusing to acknowledge the possibility that a righteous God may have had more than sufficient reason to command the complete destruction of Ai.
Name one good reason. Just give me a hypothetical. I don't want the reason that God ordered Ai destroyed; I want to hear how genocide can ever be morally acceptable.
Yet even the smallest hint of a possibility that Joshua may have been truly righteous for destroying Ai would throw your whole morally superior trip into a tail spin.
Hey, I'm not afraid of having my beliefs challenged. [However, you'll have to provide a better reason than "God ordered it, so that makes it right"].
God is righteous and just, therefore I believe every decision He makes is righteous and just.
This is completely arbitrary. Again, where are the good reasons for thinking God is righteous and just?
10 May 07
Originally posted by bbarrThese are just some characteristics which God has revealed about Himself:
Right, so the reasons that are coherent are overwhelmingly prudential in nature. I was looking more for an actual argument that started with premises about God or his characteristics and entailed that one ought to obey or worship.
He is: 1) self-existent, 2) self-sufficient, 3) everlasting, 4) infinite, 5) immutable, 6) omniscient, 7) omnipotent, 8) transcendent, 9) omnipresent, and 10) holy.
1) Self-existent: God has no origin, which is precisely the characteristic which distinguishes Him from all created things. For this alone He is worthy of awe and worship, were one to give His self-existence enough serious and steady consideration. "I AM THAT I AM" (Exodus 3:14).
2) Self-sufficient: God is what He is in Himself and has not received His life from another, as created beings have. He is in need of nothing. "The Father has life in himself" (John 5:26). All things arise from Him, including ourselves, like a perpetual fountain from an infinite well.
3) Everlasting: God has no beginning and no end; He lives in the everlasting 'now' unfettered by time. "Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come" (Revelation 4:8). "I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning" (Isaiah 46:9-10).
4) Infinite: God knows no bounds whatsoever, is without limit, measureless, and thus completely incomprehensible by anyone except Himself. "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" (Romans 11:33).
5) Immutable: God never differs from Himself. His perfection is such that He cannot improve or degrade or change in any way as He is in Himself. "I am the LORD, I change not" (Malachi 3:6).
6) Omniscient: God possesses perfect knowledge and has no need to learn. Furthermore, God has never learned and cannot learn. "Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counselor hath taught him? With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?" (Isaiah 40:12-14). (This characteristic of God never ceases to astonish me.)
7) Omnipotent: God possess an infinite supply of power in Himself, and therefore nothing is impossible for Him. All the power which He requires to accomplish His will and to create and rule the world arises from an inexhaustible source within Himself which never dries up. "With God all things are possible" (Mark 10:27).
8) Transcendent: God is as high above an angel in heaven as He is above a snail in the mud. We cannot even approach to a vaguely accurate conception of His transcendent being. Those who glimpse His glory can do nothing but worship and surrender. "The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life" (Proverbs 14:27).
9) Omnipresent: God is everywhere, near everything, and close to everyone, sees everyone, and knows everyone and everything through and through. "In him we live, and move, and have our being" (Acts 17:28).
10) Holy: God does not conform to a standard; He is His own standard. God is infinite purity without degrees. "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:5).
11 May 07
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Originally posted by twhiteheadI am and have been opposed to the war in Iraq, even when the purported
But what about when Bush orders the deaths of tens of thousands of people. He had a lot of supporters there. Do you support it or do you find the war in Iraq equally morally reprehensible? What about he allies in the second world war? How many did they kill. Is it the number of deaths or the reason behind it that matters?
Also I notice a tendency to ex iew that all killing is banned, making it likely that it was "murder" that was implied.
reasons were reasonably believed to be true.
Yes, there can be good (albeit tragic) reasons to kill another person, but
part of what makes those circumstances possible is our limited ability
to predict what people are going to do and the power that we can exercise
over them and ourselves. Omniscient and omnipotent entities suffer from
no such limitations.
But that's all an aside, anyway. God didn't merely indicate that the Israelites
ought to kill the army of Ai, he ordered the slaughter of every single living
thing -- elderly, women, children, infants, animals! -- in the name of the
Lord.
This does not meet with any definition of Justice or Compassion that I've
ever encountered, nor does it mesh with the expectations that Christians
have on themselves and each other.
'But, who are you to question God?,' I am asked. Who are you to ask
whether God is being just.
That's just it: If God is the origin of the best morality, then why wouldn't
His example be a model or a source of inspiration? Perhaps, using this
model, Christians ought to exterminate utterly all believers in Islam, or
all atheists. After all, that's what the people of Ai got (and, according to
'God,' they deserved it). So, too, did the followers of Baalim.
What if a congregation believes that 'God' is calling them to murder group
X, or society Y? Who are we to question this, given the precedent offered
by 'The Bible?'
Or, we can conclude that the Bible is merely a reflection of its authors;
the Israelites wanted to believe that God endorsed their obscenely evil
acts. In fact, the only way they could justify such a horrible slaughter
is to assert that 'God Himself' authorized -- no, demanded it.
If God can author the wanton slaughter of anyone whom He chooses --
if God is so arbitrary and petty -- why does this merit any worship?
Nemesio
11 May 07
Originally posted by bbarrSo how do you determine what's right? Why is genocide wrong? After all, the view that genocide is wrong only gained popularity in fairly recent history.
I never claimed I wanted equality with God, or even that we should get a vote in his laws. But, if he had wanted his laws to be legitimate, he could have decreed in a manner that would be consistent with what his lowly creatures would freely consent to if unbiased and rational (I'm assuming that you've read some political philosophy?). I do not care that God ...[text shortened]... cks of tyranny. Tyranny isn't justified down here, and that doesn't change in the heavens.
11 May 07
Originally posted by orfeoI disagree with that. People have always found ways of justifying genocide--God's orders, nature's way--but tend to be appalled when confronted with the reality of butchering people, especially women and children. Of course, reality being something that people don't particularly enjoy, the sort of people who benefit from genocide--kings, emperors, venture capitalists--put a great deal of energy into telling lies. Inevitably, mass killings are carried out by unaccountable scum--the Stanleys of this world--while "decent folk" sup on the pap they are fed by the media.
So how do you determine what's right? Why is genocide wrong? After all, the view that genocide is wrong only gained popularity in fairly recent history.
The basic trick to carrying out a successful genocide is to justify the slaughter of others in the name of some higher power, be it God or Progress, so removing responsibility from the killers themselves. "Thou shalt not kill"...unless God tells you.
11 May 07
3 edits
I have been away and have arrived late to the fray. Nonetheless I would like to offer my 2 cents.
1. Leviticus 20:22 says that God will vomit EVERYONE out of the Holy Land including the Jews. This can be seen time and time again as the Israelites depart from their God by worshiping the Canaanite gods and the subsequent invasions via Assyria, Bablyon etc. as a judgement and chastisment from God. This chastisment also included ALL Israelites including the women and children. The people of Ai are not the sole possessers of Gods wrath in this respect.
2. In Wiki it states that according to Jewish tradition the Canaanites were the first to commit acts of genocide by driving out the Shemites from the Holy Land who were the decendants of the Hebrew people. They then polluted the land after taking it unjustly by worshiping false gods and commiting abominable acts such as child sacrifice to their gods.
3. We have a new and better covenant now since the time of Christ. The nation of Israel was established via blood, sweat, and tears just to usher in the coming of the Messiah. As followers of Christ we are now no longer to render evil for evil or an eye for an eye. Matthew 5:43 has Christ telling his followers that "You have heard it said that you will love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say to you love your enemies, bless them that curse you, and do good to them which despitfully use you." God did not change in this respect, rather, God has a better method of loving the sinner and hating the sin via Christ and his power over sin and death in the life of his followers. In fact, you will be rather hard pressed finding Christ rendering evil for evil. Christ is the completion of the law and the law in spirit is one of love. Before the time of Christ, however, God does not have as many tools to preserve the sinner while destroying the sin of the people, thus, many more perished as a result.
4. Isaiah 55:8 says that Gods thoughts are not mans thoughts. Not a truer word can be spoken if the God of the Bible is true. We can reason away his actions, as we will naturally try to do, but such reasoning will ineveitable fall short. As far as my reasonings as the the slaughter of the Canaanites and people of Ai I will say that such judgements, as well as those of Sodom and the people of Noahs time, were judged to be wicked. Sin brings death. Of coarse, not everyone can even agree on this. However, for me, it is merely commone sense. The more I murder, steal, lie, covet, become sexually permissive, give myself over to drugs/alcholol abuse the greater chance I have of dying. Granted, I am dying anyway because I am a sinner to begin with, however, some get there faster than others. These are some of my reasonings which to be sure probably fall short of God's reasonings.
5. This age of grace under Christ is coming to an end. Has anyone looked at the judgements of Revelation? It makes the Ai slaughter seem like childs play in comparison. I say enjoy this period of grace in which we in no way earned or even deserve. It is a gift from on High.
11 May 07
Originally posted by whodeyWith regards to your fifth point (and please forgive me for only addressing the one)...
I have been away and have arrived late to the fray. Nonetheless I would like to offer my 2 cents.
1. Leviticus 20:22 says that God will vomit EVERYONE out of the Holy Land including the Jews. This can be seen time and time again as the Israelites depart from their God by worshiping the Canaanite gods and the subsequent invasions via Assyria, Bablyon etc ...[text shortened]... his period of grace in which we in no way earned or even deserve. It is a gift from on High.
You make it sound as though God created us, and immediately afterwards had to give us this gift of mercy in order to keep from slaughtering us outright. Can you undersatnd how people might have difficulty understanding how this can happen to an omni-everything God?
11 May 07
Originally posted by TheSkipperYes, ESPECIALLY from the skewed viewpoint of a sinner in which sin seems to be no big deal. On the other hand, if we were "holy" looking down upon the unrighteous then we might be asking ourselves why God bothers with us at all.
With regards to your fifth point (and please forgive me for only addressing the one)...
You make it sound as though God created us, and immediately afterwards had to give us this gift of mercy in order to keep from slaughtering us outright. Can you undersatnd how people might have difficulty understanding how this can happen to an omni-everything God?
12 May 07
Originally posted by whodeyWell done! I couldn't have said it any better myself. Case closed.
I have been away and have arrived late to the fray. Nonetheless I would like to offer my 2 cents.
1. Leviticus 20:22 says that God will vomit EVERYONE out of the Holy Land including the Jews. This can be seen time and time again as the Israelites depart from their God by worshiping the Canaanite gods and the subsequent invasions via Assyria, Bablyon etc ...[text shortened]... his period of grace in which we in no way earned or even deserve. It is a gift from on High.