12 Apr 09
Originally posted by Badwaterthere isn't anything in the teaching of Christ that can't be found in the old testament, apocrypha, or in some other religous text; the uniqueness of Christianity is the ressurection
I would resoundly disagree with this assertion.
There is a great deal in the teachings of Jesus that are helpful in getting along with other people and in finding covenant with God, things that have absolutely nothing to do with whether he rose from the dead or not.
If he rose from the dead, big deal; I wasn't there and it doesn't affect me. What has ...[text shortened]... ised a thousand times but if I haven't understood the message then his exercise is pointless.
12 Apr 09
3 edits
Originally posted by BadwaterMaster, a thousand greeting to you! if i may, without affectation, produce a scriptural reference for your perusal, which seems, after evaluation to be indicative that indeed, Christianity without the resurrection, is futile, please note the words of Paul, which i reproduce for your evaluation
For me, the teachings and example of Jesus are more important than whether he rose from the dead or not. Obviously, most (not all) of Christianity does not see it that way, but Christianity seems to place a lot of importance on odd things.
You are quite right in saying "...I see nothing wrong with the statement that Christianity without the resurrection the resurrection Christianity is pointless." I could not disagree more with that statement.
Now if Christ is being preached that he has been raised up from the dead, how is it some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead? If, indeed, there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised up. But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and our faith is in vain. Moreover, we are also found false witnesses of God, because we have borne witness against God that he raised up the Christ, but whom he did not raise up if the dead are really not to be raised up. For if the dead are not to be raised up, neither has Christ been raised up. Further, if Christ has not been raised up, your faith is useless; you are yet in your sins. In fact, also, those who fell asleep in death in union with Christ perished. If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied.....1 Corinthians 15:12-19
why would the apostle state that our faith is in vain, that we may be found false witnesses against God, and that our faith may be useless?
13 Apr 09
Originally posted by BadwaterWithout the resurrection we are all still dead in our sins and the gospel of life has been preached in vain. The power of the resurrection is life itself, and mans philosophising is vanity itself, irrespective of context. Our futures do not depend on cognitive insights but on the sovereignty, love and mercy of our creator.
I would resoundly disagree with this assertion.
There is a great deal in the teachings of Jesus that are helpful in getting along with other people and in finding covenant with God, things that have absolutely nothing to do with whether he rose from the dead or not.
If he rose from the dead, big deal; I wasn't there and it doesn't affect me. What has ...[text shortened]... ised a thousand times but if I haven't understood the message then his exercise is pointless.
13 Apr 09
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesyes they did, foretell of his resurrection, there are upwards of 400 messianic prophecies in the Hebrew scriptures, and not a few anti typical representations of the resurrection of the Christ, most notable , that of Jonah,
Couldn't Jesus be resurrected again?
Didn't the Old Testament prophecies foretell of his resurrection?
Then as an answer to him some of the scribes and Pharisees said: “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.” In reply he said to them: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet. For just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. Men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because they repented at what Jonah preached, but, look! something more than Jonah is here. The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, but, look! something more than Solomon is here. - Matthew 12:38-42
13 Apr 09
1 edit
Originally posted by RBHILLThe "resurrection" didn't happen; neither did the events described by the Jewish passover service -- at least not as written.
What do you think was the most significant event in human history? Unquestionably, the greatest event was the faint sound of a heartbeat in a cold and lifeless body in a tomb, two thousand years ago. The sound of blood rushing through the heart of Jesus of Nazareth was a sound that will thunder throughout eternity, because of its incredible implications.
Christians celebrate Easter and the resurrection of the Passover Lamb every day of the year.
The first did not happen because the dead do not come back to life after the brain has been deprived of oxygen for more than a short period of time. Days afterwards the human body is no longer human -- it is a piece of decayed meat being digested form the inside out by its own secretions. There are any number of rational explanations for the various, inconsistent accounts of the death and alleged return to life of this person Jesus of Nazareth.
You can believe what you want -- but there is no evidence that such a thing ever has happened.
As for the Exodus from Egypt, it no doubt happened over a much longer period of time and without any of the Cecile B. DeMille special effects. All of the 10-to-40 plagues alleged to have been caused by Moses & Co. are known to have occurred in Egypt, from the parting of the Red Sea to the rest. But these things happen regularly or periodically, and over a much longer period of time.
That in both these instances, a person coming back from the dead after days without breathing, or the Exodus story, "miracles" form the basis of the tales, makes clear that these are myths -- just as the stories of Hercules' labors are myths.
If you have to rely on the supernatural to get by, your mental state is more irrational than not.
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13 Apr 09
3 edits
Originally posted by duecerWell, no - there is a great deal in the Synoptic Gospels that is quite different from what you'll find in other scriptural writings, enough so to be unique. Everything from the Sermon on the Mount, to any of the Parables, to any number of encounters he has with persons in the course of his teachings; it is all unique and stands apart from the resurrection. See, the resurrection in and of itself means nothing if one is not informed of what leads Jesus to the cross. It has no value in and of itself. That's why it's not unique in and of itself - it cannot possibly be divorced from what has preceded it. My assertion is that what has preceded it is of far more value to me (and of greater practical value to any who are living) than the fact that Jesus was brutally nailed to the cross and whether he rose from that or not.
there isn't anything in the teaching of Christ that can't be found in the old testament, apocrypha, or in some other religous text; the uniqueness of Christianity is the ressurection
I can't ignore the fact - fact - that resurrection is impossible in my time and logically was impossible in Jesus' time. It's 2,000 years later and I'm not going to ignore scientific enlightenment. The thing is, I don't need for him to have risen. The metaphor is fine with me. I have of Jesus what I can use, and through emulating his teachings and ministry in the way I see fit I can make my life and the lives of those who know me better. I can try to make the world better when I leave than when I got here. Jesus brings the truth of that to me and that's why I can call him my savior, not because he died and was supposedly raised from the dead.
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13 Apr 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAnd, Sir Robbie, I would agree with that...what I disagreed with was the notion that Christianity without the Resurrection is pointless. That I do not agree with.
Master, a thousand greeting to you! if i may, without affectation, produce a scriptural reference for your perusal, which seems, after evaluation to be indicative that indeed, Christianity without the resurrection, is futile...
13 Apr 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieFunny how you have 400 messianic prophecies in the Old Testament but the only example you give is from the New Testament which is post resurrection and therefore not prophesy.
yes they did, foretell of his resurrection, there are upwards of 400 messianic prophecies in the Hebrew scriptures, and not a few anti typical representations of the resurrection of the Christ, most notable , that of Jonah,
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13 Apr 09
Originally posted by divegeesterThat's all fine and dandy if one happens to be Christian; however, I don't take an exclusionary approach to spirituality. To insinuate that Christianity is the end-all and be-all of spirituality, that your existence is only assured if you belong to the Christian Club, is dangerous and errant. I know of far too many non-Christians that are entirely entitled to existence beyond this, if in fact that is what is happening and it can be described as such. They do not need the resurrection and I'm not going to suggest for a moment that they do. I will suggest that the shrill cry of belief in Jesus is fine for oneself, but at the time you or anyone else extends that to others in judgment of what they should do and how they should be, then you are guilty of holding up righteousness as a weapon in judging others in the stead of God. Leave the judging to God and worry about yourselves.
Without the resurrection we are all still dead in our sins and the gospel of life has been preached in vain. The power of the resurrection is life itself, and mans philosophising is vanity itself, irrespective of context. Our futures do not depend on cognitive insights but on the sovereignty, love and mercy of our creator.
13 Apr 09
Originally posted by BadwaterYes🙂
That's all fine and dandy if one happens to be Christian; however, I don't take an exclusionary approach to spirituality. To insinuate that Christianity is the end-all and be-all of spirituality, that your existence is only assured if you belong to the Christian Club, is dangerous and errant. I know of far too many non-Christians that are entirely entitled ...[text shortened]... n in judging others in the stead of God. Leave the judging to God and worry about yourselves.
It seems to me that there is Christianity over here and the teachings of Jesus over there; if I have to believe that Jesus is “…the resurrected Son of God” and that I have to worship him as a “god” within the bounds of this religion, then yes, I think that this specific religion based on this specific doctrine it would be pointless once the resurrection would be out of order.
On the other hand, if I see Jesus as a teacher aiming to spread a specific “know yourself” message, then the concept of his resurrection is useless too.