18 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadHowever much the Baha'i may claim to be "all embracing" they are nevertheless effectively claiming that everyone else is wrong.
You almost cannot have religion without some form of privileged access to truth claim.
However much the Baha'i may claim to be "all embracing" they are nevertheless effectively claiming that everyone else is wrong.
True.
"He that is not with me is against me." -- Jesus Christ, Matt. 12:30.
19 Jul 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadThe Baha'i Faith claims that there is one God and He has sent all the prophets and all the holy books. There is no doubt that there have been misinterpretations, but that is man's fault.
You almost cannot have religion without some form of privileged access to truth claim.
However much the Baha'i may claim to be "all embracing" they are nevertheless effectively claiming that everyone else is wrong.
Please note that when I say prophet, I mean Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Abraham, Moses ....
"It is clear and evident to thee that all the Prophets are the Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in divers attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold Them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith. Such is the unity of those Essences of Being, those Luminaries of infinite and immeasurable splendor! Wherefore, should one of these Manifestations of Holiness proclaim saying: "I am the return of all the Prophets," He, verily, speaketh the truth. In like manner, in every subsequent Revelation, the return of the former Revelation is a fact, the truth of which is firmly established...."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah)
19 Jul 07
Originally posted by VarqaHow about false prophets? Did God send them too? If not, how are you able to differentiate between a false prophet and a true prophet?
The Baha'i Faith claims that there is one God and He has sent all the prophets and all the holy books. There is no doubt that there have been misinterpretations, but that is man's fault.
Please note that when I say prophet, I mean Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Abraham, Moses ....
"It is clear and evident to thee that all the Prophets are the Temples of ...[text shortened]... firmly established...."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah)
Consider Jesus Christ's words here:
"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many . . . many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many . . . if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matt. 24:4-5, 11, 23-27).
Christ arrived once around two thousand years ago, and will return only once at the end of the age. He makes it clear that there are no other Christs, and that his return will be clear and obvious to everyone.
And, contrary to the Baha'i belief, he does not share his throne with anyone: "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Matt. 25:31).
If you reject Christ's prophecy about himself, which the Baha'i faith does, then you have to classify Christ as a false prophet. But, if you classify Christ as a false prophet, then how can he be sent from God? And if he's not sent from God, then how can Christ possibly be included with Buddha, Zoroaster, Krishna, Abraham and Moses as a true prophet sent from God?
The Baha'i letter claims to uphold the integrity of Christ, but it in fact denies him outright.
19 Jul 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasMaybe they are all false prophets, including Christ.
How about false prophets? Did God send them too? If not, how are you able to differentiate between a false prophet and a true prophet?
Consider Jesus Christ's words here:
"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many . . . many false prophets ...[text shortened]... i letter claims to uphold the integrity of Christ, but it in fact denies him outright.
--- Penguin.
19 Jul 07
Originally posted by VarqaA pretty useless God that one who sends different messages with each prophet / holy book. Whats the point if not with the main intention of confusing everybody?
The Baha'i Faith claims that there is one God and He has sent all the prophets and all the holy books.
Why is everyone so comfortable with the concept of an "almighty" God who cant seem to do something as simple as communicate clearly with the people of earth. If he doesn't want to speak directly then why not simply teleport a copy of 'His Word' into the homes of everybody in the language of their choice? And he mustn't forget to sign at the end so we know who its from!
Arguments along the lines of "If it was obvious who wrote it or who sent the prophet then you would have no free will" simply don't stand up to basic examination.
19 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadIf he did so, What is the chance that someone choose not to believe in GOD after that?
A pretty useless God that one who sends different messages with each prophet / holy book. Whats the point if not with the main intention of confusing everybody?
Why is everyone so comfortable with the concept of an "almighty" God who cant seem to do something as simple as communicate clearly with the people of earth. If he doesn't want to speak directly e prophet then you would have no free will" simply don't stand up to basic examination.
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19 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadwhy not simply teleport a copy of 'His Word' into the homes of everybody in the language of their choice? And he mustn't forget to sign at the end so we know who its from!
A pretty useless God that one who sends different messages with each prophet / holy book. Whats the point if not with the main intention of confusing everybody?
Why is everyone so comfortable with the concept of an "almighty" God who cant seem to do something as simple as communicate clearly with the people of earth. If he doesn't want to speak directly e prophet then you would have no free will" simply don't stand up to basic examination.
Your statement is coming out of frustration. It is understandable to get frustrated with some absurd religious concepts. But let's look at what you are saying. Let's replace "belief" with "education" in your statement. Let's say we want educated people in this world. Why don't we send everyone a PhD. to their home? This way the entire world population will be well educated. Obviously this won't work. Just like education, spirituality is a rigorous process. The goal is hard to reach and must be earned.
Wipe your heart and mind of all the interpretations you have heard, and read the Bible, the Quran, the Gita… again. They are all saying the same thing. The Earth is a huge place, and it has taken man a long long time to get here. God has been talking to us all, saying the same thing over the ages. As man progressed, God told him a bit more. But a message gets distorted going from one person to the next. Add to it the clergy’s selfish interpretations, and you have the formula for disaster.
God has been talking about this day, the information age, when it is possible to communicate clearly and not allow the distortions. This is the end of this age. The end of confusion and the beginning of light!
19 Jul 07
Originally posted by VarqaLet's replace "belief" with "education" in your statement. Let's say we want educated people in this world. Why don't we send everyone a PhD. to their home? This way the entire world population will be well educated. Obviously this won't work. Just like education, spirituality is a rigorous process. The goal is hard to reach and must be earned.
Your statement is coming out of frustration.
Think about it for a bit and you will see that your analogy just doesn't work. You are saying that the best way to educate people is to give everyone a different textbook with different contents and then tell the teachers to say conflicting things.
They are all saying the same thing.
Thats not true and you know it.
19 Jul 07
Originally posted by VarqaNo, he's been talking directly to a few people and getting them to teach the rest as best they can. Those teachers may have all got the same message but they certainly are not passing the same message on.
God has been talking to us all, saying the same thing over the ages. As man progressed, God told him a bit more. But a message gets distorted going from one person to the next. Add to it the clergy’s selfish interpretations, and you have the formula for disaster.[/b]
This is an omnipotent god. One who made the entire universe. And he can't ensure a consistant messages?!?! There are only 6 billion of us here for His sake! Why can't he talk directly to all of us?
--- Penguin.
19 Jul 07
Originally posted by PenguinI will tell why,
No, he's been talking directly to a few people and getting them to teach the rest as best they can. Those teachers may have all got the same message but they certainly are not passing the same message on.
This is an omnipotent god. One who made the entire universe. And he can't ensure a consistant messages?!?! There are only 6 billion of us here for His sake! Why can't he talk directly to all of us?
--- Penguin.
We are not the only creature of GOD. There are many creatures, and they are all will submitted to his well. They are all created with complete obedience.
The only creature that is not like that, is human. That is the purpose of their creation. To be able to choose and think. To be able to find their way.
So if he wants us to know him for sure by communicating directly with , he wouldn't have created us from the begining. He have enough creatures who knows him for sure.
That has nothing to do with his omnipotentness. It is about the purpose of creating us.
No, he's been talking directly to a few people and getting them to teach the rest as best they can. Those teachers may have all got the same message but they certainly are not passing the same message on.
Those few people did deliver the message. And because of the human nature some tried to corrupt it. But the original message always existing. And when ever the message is totaly destroied , he communicate again, in each generation and to every nation.
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19 Jul 07
Originally posted by ahosyneyThe more I read it, the more I understand Mark Twain's frustration with this type of free will philosophy.
I will tell why,
We are not the only creature of GOD. There are many creatures, and they are all will submitted to his well. They are all created with complete obedience.
The only creature that is not like that, is human. That is the purpose of their creation. To be able to choose and think. To be able to find their way.
So if he wants us to know ...[text shortened]... e communicate again, in each generation and to every nation.
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Twain decries our 'disastrous moral sense', because it only gives us the chance to go wrong. The animals are all innocent and perfectly obedient to god. We're the only species dumb enough to defy god. Yet, we think we're superior. As Twain says, it's like valuing a watch that keeps poor time over an accurate one.
Yes, what a predicament we're in. The very human nature god gave us causes us to corrupt his words.
What is the point of allowing us all to 'find our way', if there's only one true path amongst a thousand false ones? Probability speaks poorly of our chances.
19 Jul 07
Originally posted by PenguinThere is a certain integrity to atheism, which denies what it cannot see. If God doesn't exist, certainly they have never been fools. But it is quite another thing to presume that all religious beliefs spring from the same God. Doing so not only denies what atheists deny (respective religious beliefs), but also, in order to make all faith relative, posits a nebulous 'default' God. And on what grounds? I respect atheism, which universally denies all beliefs, but the Baha'i claims are inexcusable.
Maybe they are all false prophets, [b]including Christ.
--- Penguin.[/b]