Spirituality
02 Jun 10
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04 Jun 10
Originally posted by UzumakiAiA=D, B=D, C=D
A=D, B=D, C=D
A =/= B =/= C
D =/= D
Thus, D does not exist. If D is God, you should probably abandon that whole trinity thing. Just stick with D=D, or at least A=B=C. They cannot be separate entities and the same thing simultaneously.
If you say that one is on a different domain, that doesn't resolve the contradiction. If I am a biologist in t ...[text shortened]...
Face it, Catholicism and associated trinity-based Christian denominations are tritheistic.
A =/= B =/= C
Clearly you did not read my post and clearly you have not bothered to understand what Catholics and Orthodox Christians mean by the Trinity. That is not an accurate representation of what the Trinity means. For example, you do not account for the fact that a Trinitarian Christian would explicitly reject the premise D=A. You have simply taken for granted that '=' is interchangeable with 'is'.
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04 Jun 10
Originally posted by checkbaiterJesus is His Son, whom btw was created in Mary by God who is Holy and is Spirit.
Well put! If Jesus is God, who raised Him? If God raised Himself then He was never really dead. The trinity is illogical and not biblical. The trinity evolved around the 4th century, and is mired in Greek Mythology. God is the Creator and the Father. Jesus is His Son, whom btw was created in Mary by God who is Holy and is Spirit. Jesus is also called the ...[text shortened]... ed and failed, the 2nd Adam did not, and succeeded in being the perfect sacrifice to redeem man.
Well, this simply ignores the prologue of the gospel of John which claims that Jesus existed before creation.
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04 Jun 10
Originally posted by galveston75Gone through this all before. If necessary, I can prove that you suffer poor memory.
Not a bit as my memoery is fine. Maybe it's just that your answers aren't good enough. The trinity is not in the Bible in any form and no matter what you think it's a contradiction to the Bible. Jesus said among many other things concerning his Father is that "his Father is greater then him". How do trinitarians not get that? But I guess they are so steeped in traditions it can't be seen.
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04 Jun 10
Originally posted by checkbaiterHaha. That's classic. The author does not seem to understand that capitals were a later addition to the Bible.The material here is so outdated. The whole article myth has been discredited.
That is if you erroneously think the "logos" refers to Jesus....
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=85
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04 Jun 10
Originally posted by Conrau KCorrect me in clear and precise terms instead of vague ones if you want to mean something. Your post reads like every other thing I have read on the matter.
[b]A=D, B=D, C=D
A =/= B =/= C
Clearly you did not read my post and clearly you have not bothered to understand what Catholics and Orthodox Christians mean by the Trinity. That is not an accurate representation of what the Trinity means. For example, you do not account for the fact that a Trinitarian Christian would explicitly reject the premise D=A. You have simply taken for granted that '=' is interchangeable with 'is'.[/b]
Here's the basic problem with your argument. You are playing with semantics because that's all there is to this wrongheaded notion of a God. There is no evidence that God exists at all, and you are trying to prove that it is logical that he is a certain way? Your central axiom is a millimeter in diameter, five kilometers long, and made of swiss cheese. It won't support your argument because it is as substantial as a meringue.
I'm all for laughing at your attempts to make this argument, but if you really want to convince anyone, you'll have to do the impossible and prove that the existence of a God is even <i>likely</i>. And once your done with that, you'll have to work with the logical contradiction of an omnipotent omnibenevolent God coexisting with evil. Then, <i>maybe</i>, you can start arguing this issue with a straight face.
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04 Jun 10
Originally posted by UzumakiAiLook. I am not arguing for the existence of God. I am not trying to convince you that God exists or that God's putative benevolence is compatible with divine omnipotence. The issue here is not primarily theological, simply logical. I am solely interested in the question of whether the Trinity is necessarily contradictory. That does not require you or me to be committed to theism.
Correct me in clear and precise terms instead of vague ones if you want to mean something. Your post reads like every other thing I have read on the matter.
Here's the basic problem with your argument. You are playing with semantics because that's all there is to this wrongheaded notion of a God. There is no evidence that God exists at all, and you are ...[text shortened]... ting with evil. Then, <i>maybe</i>, you can start arguing this issue with a straight face.
04 Jun 10
2 edits
Originally posted by UzumakiAiYou seem very confused. There is no equality in the Trinity, as the verb to be does not necessarily mean equality, but it can mean that it is a subset. For example, apples are fruits, oranges are fruits yet apples not being oranges entails no contradiction.
A=D, B=D, C=D
A =/= B =/= C
D =/= D
Thus, D does not exist. If D is God, you should probably abandon that whole trinity thing. Just stick with D=D, or at least A=B=C. They cannot be separate entities and the same thing simultaneously.
If you say that one is on a different domain, that doesn't resolve the contradiction. If I am a biologist in t
Face it, Catholicism and associated trinity-based Christian denominations are tritheistic.
So it's more like A \subset D, B \subset of D and, C \subset of D. So A=/=B=/C does not imply D=/=D.
04 Jun 10
1 edit
I think the problem arises from our tendency to think of God in human terms. We think of God as a single large brain - or consciousness and cannot see that as divisible.
If however we were to think of God in different terms - say as an organization, then the issue suddenly disappears:
There is only one Google - all other search engines are false. But Google may consist of many individual owners / workers / servers depending on which way you want to look at it.
Go to their website and you are 'on Google', go to their offices and you are 'at Google', visit the CEO and he 'is Google'.
Even with the Trinity, there is a tendency to see them as individual intelligences, when there really is no good reason for doing so. They could well be 'departments' or 'branches'.
04 Jun 10
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadOr somewhat like parts of a body. If my hand grabs something, I grab something. If my foot kicks something, I kick something. Both my hands and feet are parts of me but are also different vehicles of agency and can be identified separately.
I think the problem arises from our tendency to think of God in human terms. We think of God as a single large brain - or consciousness and cannot see that as divisible.
If however we were to think of God in different terms - say as an organization, then the issue suddenly disappears:
There is only one Google - all other search engines are false. But Go really is no good reason for doing so. They could well be 'departments' or 'branches'.
05 Jun 10
1 edit
Here is an idea that I have been contemplating for a bit.
There have been a few time travel stories where the time traveler met another version of himself. Or certianly the potential for such seemed possible.
Take the classic H.G. Wells Time Machine novel. If the teller of the story returned to the future he potentially might arrive there to meet himself.
Here you have then two or more manifestations of the same person because he has penetrated into time from outside of it.
Now, I realize this is a little fictional. But perhaps with God Who is outside of time, when He penetrates into that realm different entry points the result is more than one manifestation of Himself.
So you have at one time the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. These three representing the eternal uncreated divine Person branching out of His realm of transcending time, into out human realm of time.
They appear to us as three Persons. Actually, it is the same God running into Himself, so to speak, within our sphere of time.
05 Jun 10
Originally posted by jaywillWell kinda interesting from a Hollywood movie way but according to the Bible "No man may see God and live". Also the Bible says the "He is one God."
Here is an idea that I have been contemplating for a bit.
There have been a few time travel stories where the time traveler met another version of himself. Or certianly the potential for such seemed possible.
Take the classic H.G. Wells Time Machine novel. If the teller of the story returned to the future he potentially might arrive there to meet him ...[text shortened]... sons. Actually, it is the same God running into Himself, so to speak, within our sphere of time.
There are many any other scriptures that explains god in the same way as has been discussed.
But your thought here only shows how unexplainable the trinity belief is and how confusing it is. 1Cor 14:33 says he is a "God of order, not disorder."
But one the other hand Satan is a master of confusion and disorder. So how better to trick or blind the masses with a concept such as the trinity?
Other scriptures says "He will know his people and his people would know him."
With this trinity and it's many versions or concepts, how could anyone say they know him?
05 Jun 10
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75========================================
Well kinda interesting from a Hollywood movie way but according to the Bible "No man may see God and live". Also the Bible says the "He is one God."
There are many any other scriptures that explains god in the same way as has been discussed.
But your thought here only shows how unexplainable the trinity belief is and how confusing it is. 1Cor 14:33 th this trinity and it's many versions or concepts, how could anyone say they know him?
Well kinda interesting from a Hollywood movie way but according to the Bible "No man may see God and live".
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I agree that is it a little Hollywoodish. I thought it might help someone.
Now, I really don't want to go through another long debunking session with a student of Russell. But as a serious Bible student I learn not only what the Scriptures say but also "Again" what the Scriptures say.
"And Jacob said to Joseph, The All-sufficient God appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me." (Genesis 48:3)
Did God appear to Jacob?
Did he live afterward?
Thankyou.
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Also the Bible says the "He is one God."
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My little example did not contradict that there is one God.
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There are many any other scriptures that explains god in the same way as has been discussed.
But your thought here only shows how unexplainable the trinity belief is and how confusing it is.
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Paul in Romans 8:9-11 does not seem at all confused. And many other passages do not seem confused for those who are in the enjoyment and experience of God.
Those who neglect the experience and enjoyment of God in favor of objective theology may end up mighty confused.
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1Cor 14:33 says he is a "God of order, not disorder."
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And in the same book in the same general section on meetings and spiritual gifts, Paul also speaks this way:
"But there are distinctions of gifts, but the same Spirit;
And there are distinctions of ministries, yet the same Lord;
And there are distinctions of operations, but the same God, who operates all things in all." (1 Cor. 14:4-6)
Therefore the Apostle speaking of order also speaks of the Spirit, the Lord, and God the Father - the Triune God.
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But one the other hand Satan is a master of confusion and disorder. So how better to trick or blind the masses with a concept such as the trinity?
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The tactic of Satan is to distract the believers from the experience and enjoyment of the Triune God.
He doesn't care what you believe as long as you do not touch Christ, experience the Holy Spirit, and enjoy the Father, ie. live in the realm of the Triune God.
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Other scriptures says "He will know his people and his people would know him."
With this trinity and it's many versions or concepts, how could anyone say they know him?
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How can they not say that they know the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, who enjoy and experiene God?
Paul speaks of the Christians knowing this indwelling Triune God in Romans 8:9-11. In fact he takes it for granted.
As well as in this passage also:
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." (2 Cor. 13:14)
As well as he takes it for granted in this passage also:
"For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father, ... That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man, that Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith ..." (Eph. 3:14-17)
Here the Father, the Spirit, and the Son are simultaneously operating to dispense God into man. Paul petitions the Father for this. And this is what man needs.
That is for the Trinity to wrought Christ into the beings of His believers.