25 Aug 09
Originally posted by menace71If I am correct in my analysis of the JW position, they believe that Christ is the archangel Micheal. The also believe that Christ created the universe.
Of course Jesus said just that before Abraham was I am. Why did the Jews react in such a way? The JW's will admit that Jesus existed before Abraham but then for how long? If God forever. If just a divine creature than not for ever.
Manny
So on the first point, they have ZERO evidence that Christ is the archangel Michael other than having no other answer in relation to Christ's evident divinity. On the second point, if Christ created the materal universe, it was at that time that time began. After all, time is nothing more than a dimension within the material universe and without it time would simply cease to be. So if Christ created time, he is truly the Alpha and Omega as Revelation calls him which is the beginning and the end.
25 Aug 09
Originally posted by menace71Preach it!!!
This is the same for Christians too. My dad called me a fagot at first. My mom had serious reservations when I told her I'm a Christian. She was Catholic. People I knew made fun of me. Called me a Christer LOL. This is no way real persecution either at least in my mind. I was never faced with Death or threat of life. I think of 1 Cor 13 and I'm guilty of n ...[text shortened]... t now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Manny
25 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by whodeysadly you are not correct but as usual are wholly inaccurate, if you would be so kind could you please tell the forum why Jws have asserted that the Christ may be an archangel and secondly can you tell the forum why the translation of revelation 1:8 should be rendered as the Christ when there is not any other reference in the entire Bible, no not a single one which terms him as the Almighty, whereas there are numerous ones which term Jehovah as the Almighty! oh i almost forgot my default post to the trinity, ah, here it is
If I am correct in my analysis of the JW position, they believe that Christ is the archangel Micheal. The also believe that Christ created the universe.
So on the first point, they have ZERO evidence that Christ is the archangel Michael other than having no other answer in relation to Christ's evident divinity. On the second point, if Christ created the ...[text shortened]... me, he is truly the Alpha and Omega as Revelation calls him which is the beginning and the end.
(1 Corinthians 15:27-28) . . .But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
Philippians 2:5-6) . . .Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in Gods form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.
25 Aug 09
Originally posted by menace71The common ground is we all believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and died for our sins.
I can accept that there is some room for theological debate. On the essentials unity on the non-essentials liberty. However there has to be some common ground that is universal or at what point is some sect or group no longer Christian? Also I will never be a Jehovah Witness. I'm not buying their brand of religion is all. I disagree with the doctrines & hi ...[text shortened]... is room for debate but somethings are essential or you no longer have Christianity.
Manny
unless of course you are an athiest in which case we have heard your pathetic whining on the matter already.
25 Aug 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobiethe idea that JW's think Jesus is an Arch Angel comes from the watchtower society. Of course, they may have moved on to "new light". Its common knowledge that that is a Witness belief.
sadly you are not correct but as usual are wholly inaccurate, if you would be so kind could you please tell the forum why Jws have asserted that the Christ may be an archangel and secondly can you tell the forum why the translation of revelation 1:8 should be rendered as the Christ when there is not any other reference in the entire Bible, no not a s ...[text shortened]... in Gods form, [b]gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.[/b]
Rev 1:8 grammer dictates that Jesus is the speaker, and that he refers to himself as the almighty God
I refer to my previous commentary on phillipians, yours is a bad exegetical usage.
25 Aug 09
2 edits
Originally posted by duecersorry Dueucer not buying it, let me rephrase the question, where in the bible does their idea that Christ was an archangel derive from.
the idea that JW's think Jesus is an Arch Angel comes from the watchtower society. Of course, they may have moved on to "new light". Its common knowledge that that is a Witness belief.
Rev 1:8 grammer dictates that Jesus is the speaker, and that he refers to himself as the almighty God
I refer to my previous commentary on phillipians, yours is a bad exegetical usage.
translations should be consistent, Revelation 1:8 is a clear reference to Jehovah himself, the Almighty. Christ is never termed the Almighty.
does this sound like Christ referring to himself as the Almighty,
Philippians 2:5-6) . . .Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in Gods form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.
no, well please lets not be silly.
25 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by whodeyWe as humans only understand time as we know it. But it's interesting to see TV shows on the learning Channel or others like it about what time is and the different ideas on what time might be and how to measure it.
If I am correct in my analysis of the JW position, they believe that Christ is the archangel Micheal. The also believe that Christ created the universe.
So on the first point, they have ZERO evidence that Christ is the archangel Michael other than having no other answer in relation to Christ's evident divinity. On the second point, if Christ created the ...[text shortened]... me, he is truly the Alpha and Omega as Revelation calls him which is the beginning and the end.
So the point is, in our understanding of time it is hard to grasp that at one time there was apparently no physicle universe that one could see or understand. Maybe. What there was before..who knows. But it doesn't mean that time as we know it only started when the creations as we understand them started. But we do know that the Bible says God is from eternity to eternity but that the first born of all creations, Jesus, did have a beginning.
Jesus is also refered to as the Master Worker and by him all things other then himself were created. With Jehovah's guidence, direction, plans, etc, he allowed his son Jesus to create or build everything we see in the universe.
But we do know the Bible says that new scrolls will be opened in the future and maybe some of those questions will be answered for us.
25 Aug 09
3 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieSo you're saying jesus is not the Arc Angel Michael? Because the WTS said he was, of course they may have reversed that. but they were saying that michael means "who is like God". "Michael the Archangel, the first creation of Jehovah, before He came to earth and returned to the identity of Michael after his resurrection." (Aid To Bible Understanding, p. 1152). Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a WTS publication? where is the biblical evidence of this?
sorry Dueucer not buying it, let me rephrase the question, where in the bible does their idea that Christ was an archangel derive from.
translations should be consistent, Revelation 1:8 is a clear reference to Jehovah himself, the Almighty. Christ is never termed the Almighty.
does this sound like Christ referring to himself as the Almighty, ...[text shortened]... tion to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.
no, well please lets not be silly.
I stand by Rev 1:8 Jesus is speaking, he calls himself God Almighty, it is a new revelation, hence in revelations. We will have to disagree, though Greek scholars will agree with my argument that the person speaking in verse 8 is Jesus. I don't know how you arrived at the point that it was Jehovah speaking, although from my perspective, Jesus is Jehovah. You're the one being silly, you declare what is obviously untrue and deny the facts that are plain as the nose on your face.
I have already made plain for all to see that your cherry picking of a Phillipians thread is intellectually dishonest. Taken in context, Jesus was equal with God, Jesus is God.
edit: "There is Scriptural evidence for concluding that Michael was the name of Jesus Christ before he left heaven and after his return." (WT 5/15/1969, p. 307)
…"Michael the great prince is none other than Jesus Christ himself Dan.12:1" (WT 12/15/1984 p29)
25 Aug 09
Originally posted by duecerI'll let Robbie answer this but since Jesus is Michael the Arc Angel then that would mean that God is just an angel also? Just asking...
So you're saying jesus is not the Arc Angel Michael? Because the WTS said he was, of course they may have reversed that. but they were saying that michael means "who is like God". "Michael the Archangel, the first creation of Jehovah, before He came to earth and returned to the identity of Michael after his resurrection." (Aid To Bible Understanding, p. 1152) ...[text shortened]... great prince is none other than Jesus Christ himself Dan.12:1" (WT 12/15/1984 p29)
25 Aug 09
Originally posted by duecerDeucer the watchtower is the watchtower and the Bible is the Bible, so I asked you for Biblical references, you have none? does that not strike you as rather strange? perhaps even prejudicial? how unbecoming for a Christian that would be! Surely them crazy witnesses must have some scriptural basis for this belief? they have for everything else!
So you're saying jesus is not the Arc Angel Michael? Because the WTS said he was, of course they may have reversed that. but they were saying that michael means "who is like God". "Michael the Archangel, the first creation of Jehovah, before He came to earth and returned to the identity of Michael after his resurrection." (Aid To Bible Understanding, p. 1152) ...[text shortened]... great prince is none other than Jesus Christ himself Dan.12:1" (WT 12/15/1984 p29)
we have authority from numerous other verses to translate 'the Lord' in revelation, as Jehovah, there are none supporting its translation as 'the Christ', no not one, you have therefore no authority to do so, none whatsoever, yet you insist on perpetuating this myth! plus, yes, plus, elsewhere it is clearly shown that Christ himself never even considered himself to be equal to God, ahh those words are like honey to the righteous ones lips!
i reproduce them here once again for your benefit and include the post resurrection one, just in case you start all that 'yes but that was christ as a man', monkey business again!
(1 Corinthians 15:27-28) . . .But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
Philippians 2:5-6) . . .Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in Gods form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.
perhaps you should reflect on the words of Psalm 83:18
That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,
You alone are the Most High over all the earth.
we can get to the other stuff in a minute.
25 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe other verses are not in question Robbie, please stop ducking and weaving. You cannot account for rev1:8 as it disagrees with your theology. The plain fact is that Jesus is the one speaking in verse 8, and he says he is the alpha and omega, and the almighty God. Is it your contention that there is more than one God? You see contrary to the myth you have promelgated, trinitarians beleive there is only one God, but that it is expressed by three offices or facets, or charachteristics. To say that Jehovah is God almighty, and that Jesus is a mighty god is to say that there is more than one god, and we both know what the bible says about that.
[b]
we have authority from numerous other verses to translate 'the Lord' in revelation, as Jehovah, there are none supporting its translation as 'the Christ', no not one, you have therefore no authority to do so, none whatsoever, yet you insist on perpetuating this myth! plus, yes, plus, elsewhere it is clearly shown that Christ himself never even considered himself to be equal to God, ahh those words are like honey to the righteous ones lips!
25 Aug 09
1 edit
from the king james:
Phillipians 2: 5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
"who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God"
Robbie you keep quoting this, yet you have not asked the Holy Spirit to open your eyes to the understanding of it. It is simple, Christ was equal to God (who is equal? no one, so Christ was God), then made himself a servant (took on the form of flesh), why did he do this? that is an important question Robbie. he did it for your salvation, so that none should perish. God became man so that none should perish.
Christ being god in no way detarcts form God's majesty, in fact it enhances it. There are not 2 god's, nor three, there is one God, who became flesh for the sake of all humankind.
25 Aug 09
Originally posted by galveston75Isaiah 48:12-13 (New Living Translation)
We as humans only understand time as we know it. But it's interesting to see TV shows on the learning Channel or others like it about what time is and the different ideas on what time might be and how to measure it.
So the point is, in our understanding of time it is hard to grasp that at one time there was apparently no physicle universe that one coul ...[text shortened]... rolls will be opened in the future and maybe some of those questions will be answered for us.
12 “Listen to me, O family of Jacob,
Israel my chosen one!
I alone am God,
the First and the Last.
13 It was my hand that laid the foundations of the earth,
my right hand that spread out the heavens above.
When I call out the stars,
they all appear in order.”
unless Christ is God, then he did not in fact create anything