02 Dec 10
Most people who profess to believe in god or Christ really don't, and I think I can prove it. Many believers state that god (or Jesus) is always present and is aware of everything that is going on. Yet most human beings will at least on occasion do, say, or at least think reprehensible things that they would never even consider if Jesus were actually in the room with them. In other words, if Jesus were actually with them, there would be no misbehavior. The misbehavior therefore occurs when the person is confident Jesus is not there, which is in direct conflict with the idea he is always there.
Of course as an atheist, I say good or bad behavior is not affected directly by Jesus because he, as an active being does not exist. His reported teachings affect people, but not he himself.
02 Dec 10
3 edits
Originally posted by 667joei don't think your point will stand because we are engaged in a personal battle against our sinful nature warring against us on one side and the majesty and utterly superlative example of Jesus Christ helping us to overcome these things on the other. Does it negate the reality, i don't think so, for if you shall observe the ancient text its easy to see that even those who were with Christ during his earthly sojourn made some quite serious mistakes.
Most people who profess to believe in god or Christ really don't, and I think I can prove it. Many believers state that god (or Jesus) is always present and is aware of everything that is going on. Yet most human beings will at least on occasion do, say, or at least think reprehensible things that they would never even consider if Jesus were actually in the ...[text shortened]... , as an active being does not exist. His reported teachings affect people, but not he himself.
02 Dec 10
4 edits
Originally posted by 667joeI disagree with your "proof". I can imagine someone believing in Christ along with all the notions that belief may carry with it (subject to believer's interpration; for example an everpresent ethereal Jesus watching over their every move) and then live out their life with times for which the recollection of this belief (and associated baggage) takes lower precedence in their chain of thoughts than the desire to do something reprehensible.
Most people who profess to believe in god or Christ really don't, and I think I can prove it. Many believers state that god (or Jesus) is always present and is aware of everything that is going on. Yet most human beings will at least on occasion do, say, or at least think reprehensible things that they would never even consider if Jesus were actually in the ...[text shortened]... , as an active being does not exist. His reported teachings affect people, but not he himself.
At any time the question is asked: "do you believe in Christ?" however, then they can, truthfully, say they do (since at such a time, this belief will take a higher precedence in their thoughts).
Indeed, at any times you eat junkfood (or just fail to look after yourself in some way you'd recognise (and deem this a bad thing) if you gave it some thought - like taking drugs or staying up for longer than 24 hours etc...), I assume the thought "this activity will/will not have a negative effect on [your] body" doesn't always spring to mind. Should we conclude therefore that you fail to believe you have an ever present body??? This analogy has (unless someone would correct me) the same form as your proof
02 Dec 10
Originally posted by 667joeIf you wear a lead hat then god can't see your thoughts.
Most people who profess to believe in god or Christ really don't, and I think I can prove it. Many believers state that god (or Jesus) is always present and is aware of everything that is going on. Yet most human beings will at least on occasion do, say, or at least think reprehensible things that they would never even consider if Jesus were actually in the ...[text shortened]... , as an active being does not exist. His reported teachings affect people, but not he himself.
02 Dec 10
Originally posted by 667joe"Yet most human beings will at least on occasion do, say, or at least think reprehensible things that they would never even consider if Jesus were actually in the room with them."
Most people who profess to believe in god or Christ really don't, and I think I can prove it. Many believers state that god (or Jesus) is always present and is aware of everything that is going on. Yet most human beings will at least on occasion do, say, or at least think reprehensible things that they would never even consider if Jesus were actually in the ...[text shortened]... , as an active being does not exist. His reported teachings affect people, but not he himself.
Not so. Jesus is with me at all times, and I still act like a jerk.
"Of course as an atheist, I say good or bad behavior is not affected directly by Jesus because he, as an active being does not exist."
Therefore your argument is moot.
02 Dec 10
Originally posted by 667joei profess christ and god, but im no saint, i say and do things which are good and bad, even the appostiles did but its our ability to learn to use our good gifts, then learn to reduce the human frailties within us.
Most people who profess to believe in god or Christ really don't, and I think I can prove it. Many believers state that god (or Jesus) is always present and is aware of everything that is going on. Yet most human beings will at least on occasion do, say, or at least think reprehensible things that they would never even consider if Jesus were actually in the ...[text shortened]... , as an active being does not exist. His reported teachings affect people, but not he himself.
02 Dec 10
Originally posted by 667joewhat about those who acted badly when Jesus was actually present in person?
I believe in police officers, but if one is around when I am driving, I go a little slower. If Jesus is always around, wouldn't you "go a little slower" all the time if you are a believer? It seems to me that when you are acting badly, you don't feel Jesus is there.
02 Dec 10
Originally posted by 667joeWhy do you conclude that? Children quite readily misbehave in front of their parents, people misbehave in front of the police, or other authorities, why should Christians be any different? People are less likely to misbehave if being observed will incur a punishment, but most Christians do not believe they will be significantly punished for their sins.
In other words, if Jesus were actually with them, there would be no misbehavior.
02 Dec 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadactually Joe is correct in assuming that a Christian should behave in a manner worthy of the name, for they are counselled from the scriptures, to obey the governments even in small things, like driving at the proper speed limit, the principle is found in Romans chapter 13 and Luke chapter 10:16, secondly they have a moral obligation not to bring reproach upon the name. The problem that he fails to realise is that it does not always come naturally and may mistake this for a non reality, when indeed it is not but a struggle to overcome personal weaknesses in this regard.
Why do you conclude that? Children quite readily misbehave in front of their parents, people misbehave in front of the police, or other authorities, why should Christians be any different? People are less likely to misbehave if being observed will incur a punishment, but most Christians do not believe they will be significantly punished for their sins.
02 Dec 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhen all christians behaves morally correct, then I would have a higher esteem for the religion at hand. However, this is not the case, neither in history nor in present times.
actually Joe is correct in assuming that a Christian should behave in a manner worthy of the name, for they are counselled from the scriptures, to obey the governments even in small things, like driving at the proper speed limit, the principle is found in Romans chapter 13 and Luke chapter 10:16, secondly they have a moral obligation not to bring rep ...[text shortened]... on reality, when indeed it is not but a struggle to overcome personal weaknesses in this regard.
02 Dec 10
1 edit
Originally posted by FabianFnasSimply because someone is nominally termed a Christian does not make them so, any more than if I adopt the name Ari Zeigler and masquerade as a Swedish international master from Gothenburg. However this is not the point at hand, Joe is stating that indeed it would appear to him that the reality of the Christian faith is not evident when Christian act in a morally objectionable way.
When all christians behaves morally correct, then I would have a higher esteem for the religion at hand. However, this is not the case, neither in history nor in present times.
02 Dec 10
4 edits
Originally posted by 667joe======================================
Most people who profess to believe in god or Christ really don't, and I think I can prove it. Many believers state that god (or Jesus) is always present and is aware of everything that is going on. Yet most human beings will at least on occasion do, say, or at least think reprehensible things that they would never even consider if Jesus were actually in the ...[text shortened]... , as an active being does not exist. His reported teachings affect people, but not he himself.
Most people who profess to believe in god or Christ really don't, and I think I can prove it.
======================================
A good place to begin with following Jesus Christ is not to be concerned with what "most people" do. Rather set your heart to follow Christ as you know in your heart you should.
On the day of judgment do you think God will hear your excuses about what "most people" did or did not do ? He will examine what you did.
==========================
Many believers state that god (or Jesus) is always present and is aware of everything that is going on. Yet most human beings will at least on occasion do, say, or at least think reprehensible things that they would never even consider if Jesus were actually in the room with them.
============================
God does not expect a Christian to muster up self effort to imitate being good. The process of Christ making His home in our hearts is the process of learning to live in union with Him, moving as He moves, feeling as He feels, speaking, thinking, acting in a blended way with His movement within.
This what is meant by the grace of Christ. It is living a life of abiding in Him rather than trying to figure out "What would Jesus do?" imitating that in our own strength.
The one who is born of God must allow the seed life to grow and develop and spread into his choices, actions, thought life. This is abiding in a living Person who is "a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45).
It is an adventure and it takes a life time to master.
==================================
In other words, if Jesus were actually with them, there would be no misbehavior. The misbehavior therefore occurs when the person is confident Jesus is not there, which is in direct conflict with the idea he is always there.
====================================
This only speaks that there are a lot of immature Christians. It does not prove that Christ is not risen, available, and living.
As an unbeliever you are also oblivious to the transgressions you are accumulating day by day. You also have no sober sense that you are on a rendevous with reality when you one day have to give an account for the speeches you have given against God.
I am not discouraged because I know thousands of Christians whose lives are mightily effected by their moment by moment fellowship with the indwelling Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
My sense is that the future of the Christian church is rather glorious. I suppose it depends on what one is looking for. I look for Christian brothers and sisters who will encourage my faith.
Others keep their eye out for reasons to disbelieve.
==========================
Of course as an atheist, I say good or bad behavior is not affected directly by Jesus because he, as an active being does not exist. His reported teachings affect people, but not he himself.
===========================
I would have it the other way around. Any real change in Christians useful in God's kingdom is by Christ Himself and not by Christ's teachings apart from He Himself living within them.
You try loving your enemies. Doesn't last too long.
You try turning the other cheek.
You try not looking at a woman to lust after her in imagined adultery.
You try praying for those who persecute you.
These things are hard to genuinely do from the heart. Imitation is like a poodle walking upright like a man. It just doesn't look like the same thing.
It is by abiding in the available and living Christ Who is in resurrection that we can live through Him. And without abiding in Him we really can do nothing.
Thousands upon thousands are inheriting the promises. That encourages me that the atheist is completely wrong and the believer in Christ is on the right track.
"Has Science Made Belief in God Obsolete ?" J P Moreland discusses:
02 Dec 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIt is not so much a question of what one should do (one could argue that everyone should behave well), it is a question of whether you believe you will be punished for bad behavior. His argument essentially relies on the claim that punishment follows from being 'caught'.
actually Joe is correct in assuming that a Christian should behave in a manner worthy of the name, .....
If your behavior is good because you believe it is right to behave well (whether in order to live up to the name 'Christian' or otherwise) then you will behave well regardless of whether or not you believe Jesus is watching you. If on the other hand your behavior is based on a fear of punishment, then whether or not you believe Jesus is watching would have an impact on your behavior.