07 Dec 10
Originally posted by AgergWould you hold me as worthy of death in this case
and supposing I told you I find the Bible to be nonsense, and that Bible god is a contemptible, wholly human devised entity (whom I could not possibly bring myself to believe in), consistent with the mindsets of the barbaric, ancient human writers of these texts.
Would you hold me as worthy of death in ths case?
probably not but i am sure we could make an exception if you really insist upon it 😉
07 Dec 10
Originally posted by Agerg=====================================
and supposing I told you I find the Bible to be nonsense, and that Bible god is a contemptible, wholly human devised entity (whom I could not possibly bring myself to believe in), consistent with the mindsets of the barbaric, ancient human writers of these texts.
Would you hold me as worthy of death in ths case?
and supposing I told you I find the Bible to be nonsense, and that Bible god is a contemptible, wholly human devised entity (whom I could not possibly bring myself to believe in), consistent with the mindsets of the barbaric, ancient human writers of these texts.
Would you hold me as worthy of death in ths case?
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The question of whether the sinners are worthy of death has already been determined. You need not making in your mind more and more bad things to see when I will say you are worthy of death.
That is not my job. My responsibility is to inform you of the love and salvation through Jesus Christ.
You need not keep proding me "Am I Bad Enough Yet ? How about now? How about now ? Am I bad enough NOW ??"
My part is to tell you of Christ's love and redemption for you and His plan to conform you to the image of Christ.
07 Dec 10
Originally posted by jaywillWell there are two possibilities (with branches - some more plausible than others) which are:
I think Agerg is trying to see at what point I will say [b]"Okay that's it. Get the stones out brothers and sisters !"[/b]
1) You hold the account as given in Rom. 1:29-32 as correct
2) You hold the account as given in Rom. 1:29-32 as incorrect.
If (1) then I should be worthy of death and you would likely (inspite of your reluctance to openly state it) endorse any death penalties imposed upon me. This would of course call into question your theistic morality in any pragmatic/civilised sense (even though it would still consistent with the morality of your god).
If (2) then you would have to concede the Bible is not (as you believe it is) infallible; what else you can then suppose is incorrect in the Bible would shape your improvement of the present model of god you have thus far.
07 Dec 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIf any of your fellow Christians did deem me worthy of execution, would you endorse their adherence to the scriptures?
Would you hold me as worthy of death in this case
probably not but i am sure we could make an exception if you really insist upon it 😉
07 Dec 10
4 edits
Originally posted by Agerg===================================
Well there are two possibilities (with branches - some more plausible than others) which are:
1) You hold the account as given in Rom. 1:29-32 as correct
2) You hold the account as given in Rom. 1:29-32 as incorrect.
If (1) then I should be worthy of death and you would likely (inspite of your reluctance to openly state it) endorse any death penalties imp ...[text shortened]... correct in the Bible would shape your improvement of the present model of god you have thus far.
Well there are two possibilities (with branches - some more plausible than others) which are:
1) You hold the account as given in Rom. 1:29-32 as correct
2) You hold the account as given in Rom. 1:29-32 as incorrect.
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I don't see where your confusion is. We are worthy of death.
Are you trying to force me to be the executioner ? I am neither the judge or the executioner. I am a sinner saved by grace intrusted with the Gospel message for other sinners.
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If (1) then I should be worthy of death and you would likely (inspite of your reluctance to openly state it)
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If I was reluctant to state it I would not have quoted Romans there to begin with.
And I applied the situation of our worthiness of death to both of us.
I am of course more familiar with my own sins then yours, naturally.
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endorse any death penalties imposed upon me. This would of course call into question your theistic morality in any pragmatic/civilised sense (even though it would still consistent with the morality of your god).
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There is no responsibility whatsoever for Christians to execute death penalties on human beings as a function of their faith.
Of what profit is it to you that you , to attempt by some logic, to reason that we Christians should become executioners ?
Go to the state and insist that you should be executed if you wish to be like Socrates, arguing for his own logical capital punishment.
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If (2) then you would have to concede the Bible is not (as you believe it is) infallible; what else you can then suppose is incorrect in the Bible would shape your improvement of the present model of god you have thus far.
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I am not sure you yourself understand what you mean here. In any case, I sure don't.
07 Dec 10
Originally posted by jaywillYou stated in the response for which I gave a partial quote, that we are worthy of execution which, by definition, is the bringing about of death by means of capital punishment in accordance with law. Moreover, the conditions in that scripture passage don't apply to you (in most cases) since
[b]===================================
Well there are two possibilities (with branches - some more plausible than others) which are:
1) You hold the account as given in Rom. 1:29-32 as correct
2) You hold the account as given in Rom. 1:29-32 as incorrect.
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I don't see where your confusion is. We are ...[text shortened]... [/b]
I am not sure you yourself understand what you mean here. In any case, I sure don't.[/b]
Being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetous, malice, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, whisperers, slanderers Satisfying any of these (apart from covetous & perhaps whisperers - what does the latter mean?) requires you be an utter bastard - I don't think this is the case.
Hateful to God You clearly fail this criterion
insolent, arrogant I have not seen sufficent evidence to say you fully satisfy this criterion.
boasters I suppose you might satisfy this one but boasting about what? You have the right religion, others don't? You drew an accurate rendering of a persons face with a 2B pencil in half an hour and wish to show it off? Please explain
disobedient to parents Perhaps this holds for you but then I contest it isn't always the case that one should always be obedient to their parents - sometimes, like all humans, their intentions/wishes can be wrong/harmful/disadvantageous.
inventors of evil things, faithfless quite sure you don't satisfy these
affectionless, merciless I certainly doubt the latter, don't know about the former.
In short it applies to me more than it does you because though I don't believe in God it can be successfully argued I hate your concept of this entity and I clearly don't have faith.
I'm not seeking to build a case for my own execution I'm seeking to demonstrate *you* think I should be executed; furthermore if you don't think I should be executed then you would not be acting in accordance with scripture, since in this case you would likely fail to agree with it. (which is part of the punchline to (2) in my last response which you didn't understand)
07 Dec 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThen inspite of any implications to the contrary, you do not hold the scriptures as flawless - since whether private or openly, a failure to endorse carrying out the will of god means you don't believe it is the will of god.
no, were not in the habit of making martyrs out of Atheists 🙂
07 Dec 10
Originally posted by Agergsorry have no idea what you are talking about, although it does seem to me that you are unaware of either the scriptures, or Gods will, but that is too be expected.
Then inspite of any implications to the contrary, you do not hold the scriptures as flawless - since whether private or openly, a failure to endorse carrying out the will of god means you don't believe it is the will of god.
(2 Peter 3:9) . . .Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. . .
that is the will of God Agers.
07 Dec 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieContradicted by:
sorry have no idea what you are talking about, although it does seem to me that you are unaware of either the scriptures, or Gods will, but that is too be expected.
(2 Peter 3:9) . . .Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. . .
that is the will of God Agers.
Romans 1 :29-32 “Those filled with unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, hate for god, despite, proud, boasters, inventions of evil things, disobedience to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers, unnatural affection, implacable or unmerciful nature: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death”.
Matthew 12:32 “Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come”. Mark 3:29 - “He that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgivness, but is in danger of eternal damnation”.
I satisfy the conditions for both of these.
07 Dec 10
1 edit
Originally posted by Agergnot a contradiction by any means, indeed, if you are conscious that you practice these things and willfully do so, and are unrepentant or unwilling to change then you condemn yourself by your actions. Its not for me to judge you in any way, i am not a god, i am a human, like you, i simply don't think its wise to mess with God, that's all, indeed, i challenge you to state which one of those practices is of any benefit to you.
Contradicted by:
Romans 1 :29-32 “Those filled with unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, hate for god, despite, proud, boasters, inventions of evil things, disobedience to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers, unnatural affection, implacable or ...[text shortened]... ness, but is in danger of eternal damnation”.
I satisfy the conditions for both of these.
i reproduce a better translation,
(Romans 1:28-32) . . .And just as they did not approve of holding God in accurate knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting, filled as they were with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, badness, being full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malicious disposition, being whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, insolent, haughty, self-assuming, inventors of injurious things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, false to agreements, having no natural affection, merciless. Although these know full well the righteous decree of God, that those practising such things are deserving of death, they not only keep on doing them but also consent with those practising them.
you see Agers Paul qualifies his statement, in that those persons who practice such things do so in full knowledge that they are condemned in Gods word, thus, it is not out of ignorance, nor of weakness, but wilful. If God states that you are going to get zapped by practising such things, then you do them, then you are to be held responsible for your own actions.
07 Dec 10
6 edits
Originally posted by Agerg====================================
You stated in the response for which I gave a partial quote, that we are worthy of [b]execution which, by definition, is the bringing about of death by means of capital punishment in accordance with law. Moreover, the conditions in that scripture passage don't apply to you (in most cases) since
Being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, coveto ich is part of the punchline to (2) in my last response which you didn't understand)
You stated in the response for which I gave a partial quote, that we are worthy of execution which, by definition, is the bringing about of death by means of capital punishment in accordance with law.
==================================== [/b]
I looked for the quotation "worthy of execution" and could not find that I wrote that. The Romans passage says "worthy of death".
Please cut and paste my quotation of "worthy of execution" if I wrote that.
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Moreover, the conditions in that scripture passage don't apply to you (in most cases) since
Being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetous, malice, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, whisperers, slanderers Satisfying any of these (apart from covetous & perhaps whisperers - what does the latter mean?) requires you be an utter bastard - I don't think this is the case.
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I don't follow you here. Paul is laying the ground work for a doctrine of condemnation. From there he goes into justification and redemption etc.
Chapter 1:18 through chapter 3:20 is on Condemnation.
1:18 - 32 is a condemnation of Mankind in general
2:1-16 is a condemnation on the Self-righteous people in particular
2:17 - 3:8 is a condemnation on Religious Specifically
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Hateful to God You clearly fail this criterion
insolent, arrogant I have not seen sufficent evidence to say you fully satisfy this criterion.
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I fail to see your point in all this. I think we are headed in this section of Paul's letter to a general situation of all people that "the wages of sin is death". And we arrive at "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." (2:23)
From including all men under condemnation Paul then establishes that through Christ there is justification by His grace - "Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus"
I am not sure what fruitfulness is derived in two sinners arguing "This applies to YOU. That applies to ME. This applies to YOU. That applies to HIM."
I do not take this section of Romans as anything but an emphasis on the seriousness of our iniquites. Before God's holiness and glory we all fall short and it is a very serious matter.
Any kind of aportioning out this or that error seems to me to miss the essential point. We should all understand that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We all need to be reconciled to God.
I'll skip the rest of this tangent and see what you have below it.
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In short it applies to me more than it does you because though I don't believe in God it can be successfully argued I hate your concept of this entity and I clearly don't have faith.
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The point of this section of Romans is not that two sinners would argue over who tallies up more errors then the other. The point is that ALL have sinned.
Do not compare yourself with me or I with you. We both are compared to Jesus Christ. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Christ has not sinned and fully expresses the glory of God as MAN was intended to by creation.
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I'm not seeking to build a case for my own execution I'm seeking to demonstrate *you* think I should be executed; furthermore if you don't think I should be executed then you would not be acting in accordance with scripture, since in this case you would likely fail to agree with it. (which is part of the punchline to (2) in my last response which you didn't understand)
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To repeat, what Christ has commissioned the Christian with is the Gospel - the Good News of forgiveness of sins and salvation in Christ.
"And thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise up from the dead on the third day, and that repentance for forgivenesss of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.
And behold, I send forth the promise of My Father upon you ... you put on power from on high." (See Luke 24:46-49)
Sorry to disappoint you, but I read no instructions about your stoning or execution.
You may find some fanatical people to obligue you. But you won't be able to blame that on the Gospel of Christ. No execution will be forthcoming from me, only prayer and some announcing of the love of Jesus.
07 Dec 10
3 edits
Originally posted by jaywill
[b]====================================
You stated in the response for which I gave a partial quote, that we are worthy of execution which, by definition, is the bringing about of death by means of capital punishment in accordance with law.
==================================== [/b]
I looked for the quotation "worthy of execution" ming from me, only prayer and some announcing of the love of Jesus.[/b]
I looked for the quotation [b]"worthy of execution" and could not find that I wrote that. The Romans passage says "worthy of death".
Please cut and paste my quotation of "worthy of execution" if I wrote that. [/b]
you wrote:
...The New Testament says that the following things make a person worthy of death:
" they did not approve of holding God in thier full knoweldge, God gave them up to a disapproved mind, to do the things which are not fitting, Being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, malice; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers, slanderers, hateful to God, insolent, arrogant, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, sensless, faithfless, affectionless, merciless; who, though fully knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do them, but also have fellow delight in those who practice them." (Rom. 1:29-32)
The Bible says that those who practice such things are worthy of death. It did not say you will be stoned or struck dead the instant everytime. But it does reveal the attitude of God. Those who practice such things and delight in those who do, are worthy of death.
We are worthy of execution. Some examples must have been made in the Old Testament for our education...
Notice the bit I bolded.
07 Dec 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobiedeceit (or plain old lying) is a good thing sometimes - enables me to hide my intentions/true thoughts when the only disadvantages (and no advantages) for not doing this would fall upon myself. We have discussed this one in the past.
not a contradiction by any means, indeed, if you are conscious that you practice these things and willfully do so, and are unrepentant or unwilling to change then you condemn yourself by your actions. Its not for me to judge you in any way, i am not a god, i am a human, like you, i simply don't think its wise to mess with God, that's all, indeed, i ...[text shortened]... ising such things, then you do them, then you are to be held responsible for your own actions.
disobedience to parents can sometimes be a good thing if that which you are meant to obey is just wrong - especially if you have crap parents (I didn't but some do).