Truth .. JW Style

Originally posted by Rajk999
I wonder if you can understand some simple common sense.

If you had your religious beliefs like most denominations and worship God the way he asked, then nobody would be asking you these questions.

Your belief excludes the rest of the world from eternal life.. who are in the words of your organisation, the followers of Satan and are doomed.

Hence all the questions.

here is my official line my official line, beyond this i have nothing more to say, you may surmise, draw your own conclusions, assign values where none exist, try to draw vague inferences, call me anything you like, etc etc etc,

we do not take blood in whole nor in one of its four main constituent parts, that is white cells red cells, plasma and platelets. In the case of a minor it is out of our hands. we claim the right as adults of self determination, that is the right to choose what shall be done with our own bodies. It is clear and concise,

goodnight gentlemen, have a good evening.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
look Lola , no more emotionally charged hypothetical scenarios. we do not take blood in whole nor in one of its four main constituent parts, that is white cells red cells, plasma and platelets. In the case of a minor it is out of our hands. we claim the right as adults of self determination, that is the right to choose what shall be done with our ...[text shortened]... nd, its all irrelevant and blah de blah, no more hypothetical scenarios, do you understand Lola?

And you still have not answered the question.

Perhaps you are allowed to speak the official JW line and not allowed to think outside of that.


And what's up with calling me "Lola"?

Originally posted by divegeester
Are you going to answer my question or just continue to faff about?


My apologies, I know I sound impatient...

After ONLY 4 pages of evasion, what is there to be impatient about?

Originally posted by bbarr
Suppose your child was badly injured, and a doctor told you that a blood transfusion was essential to save your child's life. Suppose that the law allowed you to refuse. Would you accept, or would you refuse?

Suppose your child was badly injured and the state said we can take one of the
children from a family that isn't as useful as yours and kill them for their body
parts it is the only way to save your child's life. Would you say kill them for my
child is more important to me than someone I don't know or care about?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Suppose your child was badly injured and the state said we can take one of the
children from a family that isn't as useful as yours and kill them for their body
parts it is the only way to save your child's life. Would you say kill them for my
child is more important to me than someone I don't know or care about?
Kelly

Although my loved ones are more important to me than those unknown to me, I would refuse this offer. Isn't this obvious?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Suppose your child was badly injured and the state said we can take one of the
children from a family that isn't as useful as yours and kill them for their body
parts it is the only way to save your child's life. Would you say kill them for my
child is more important to me than someone I don't know or care about?
Kelly

Thats a far out question thats also irrelevant to the topic at hand. Why did you ask that?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
No, robbie, this is a relevant question.

Many JW's have died because their parents, their husbands, the brothers has forbid somene to be helped with a blood transfusion.

This is a critic against JW, not you personally, I want to stay friend with you if you let me to, but that doesn't mean that I agree with what JW thinks in every matter.

Just from my own experiance of being a JW for 48 years and living in Galveston Texas most of those years where the University of Texas has a huge Medical Center with a medical school. Also the Shriner Burns Hospital for children is there which serves almost the southern half of the nation and the UTMB Hospital itself is government run so it it also a charity hospital.
And north of Galveston in Houston is one of the worlds largest medical centers.
My father was on a list of local Elders that were called anytime any Brother or Sister and their families were in any of those hospitals and needed support.
In all those years and with many, many JW's using those facilities, some with emergency situations, did I ever here of any JW dieing because of refusing a blood transfusion.
One of those was my wife who had complications from giving birth to my son. Every doctor in the hospital that was involved with it all said to a person that she would positively die without one.
Guess what. 2 days later she was home and doing fine.............

Originally posted by divegeester
What?!

It's not nonsense, these are your (JW's) doctrines we are talking about mate. Man-up and explain your beliefs in terms of real world scenarios instead of hiding behind obfuscation.

Why don't you back off some. You have no reason to be so demanding with answers given to you. If you want to have a decent monolog with anyone here cool it...
If your going to ask questions then accept the answers you get and stop the nagging.

Originally posted by bbarr
Although my loved ones are more important to me than those unknown to me, I would refuse this offer. Isn't this obvious?

It is a line I didn't think you'd cross, as I would not either; however, you and
others here are also putting pressure on others for their lines that they would not
cross. At what point do these lines become important enough to honor? It seems
we all feel there are some, but others here may have said, "My kids are more
important to me than others!” and their lines are their kids. So what do we do
with those, their lines are beyond ours, do we call them selfish and self absorbed?

I would not refuse my child's life due to a blood transfusion, but who am I to tell
another their beliefs and standards are not honorable since they are not like
mine? At some point we are all going to die and we all have to live with the
choices we make, so again who are you to tell another their value system isn’t
worth while enough to honor? You feel you have the right justification to tell
another how to raise their kids, do you think others should be able to tell you how
you should raise your kids? You may feel it is acceptable, but I promise you at
some point they may have different values than yours and if you surrender your
parental authority to another, another has parental authority over your kids, no
matter if you agree with them or not?
Kelly

Originally posted by Rajk999
Thats a far out question thats also irrelevant to the topic at hand. Why did you ask that?

No, it is not a far out question, it goes right to point! Some point in time your
views, your standards, may be the one in quesiton!. If you have a standard that
does not agree with others, why should you get to have your beliefs honored? If
you cannot honor someone else's and let them live their lives out as they see fit,
why should anyone get to do the same?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
No, it is not a far out question, it goes right to point! Some point in time your
views, your standards, may be the one in quesiton!. If you have a standard that
does not agree with others, why should you get to have your beliefs honored? If
you cannot honor someone else's and let them live their lives out as they see fit,
why should anyone get to do the same?
Kelly

Your ask if we would take from others to help our own (children)
. Rajk was asking whether JWs should let their kids get blood.
Totally different IMO

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Your ask if we would take from others to help our own (children)
. Rajk was asking whether JWs should let their kids get blood.
Totally different IMO

I agree it is different, totally not so much. I would not allow fetal stem cells on
my kids to save their lives, but I imagine another would. My point is if we do not
get to draw the line on our own lives and that of our families than no one gets to
at some point that line will be where you don't want it.
Kelly

Originally posted by galveston75
Why don't you back off some. You have no reason to be so demanding with answers given to you. If you want to have a decent monolog with anyone here cool it...
If your going to ask questions then accept the answers you get and stop the nagging.

robbie and galv, I will "back off" as we are getting nowhere and the point is proven even if the questions remain unanswered. I apologise for my impatience being manifest as abruptness and an increasing demand for these answers.

I find it is difficult to have a decent conversation with JW's because you (both of you here, and those I have met in the flesh) always avoid answering direct questions about your controversial doctrines and beliefs. I am led to understand this is how you are taught to respond, as the JW organisation likes to keep a very tight reign on what is preached and how their doctrines are communicated externally.

You should be aware however, that it is very irritating when a religious group such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, claims to have the whole truth and all the truth currently available to man of the knowledge of God and yet is either incapable or at least unwilling to clearly respond to 2 simple questions; the first about the doctrinal position on the access to eternal life, and the second to the doctrinal and practical position on saving life in the temporal plane with blood transfusions.

It is my recommendation to the casual enquirer that these that these two questions are two of the most important things you should ask a JW:

1) Do I have to become a Jehovah's Witness (join the organisation) in order to gain eternal life?

2) If your loved one needed a blood transfusion to save their life and it was in your power to allow it - would you?

The answers from these questions (if you get them) will tell you everything you need to know about the root of the organisation.

Originally posted by KellyJay
It is a line I didn't think you'd cross, as I would not either; however, you and
others here are also putting pressure on others for their lines that they would not
cross. At what point do these lines become important enough to honor? It seems
we all feel there are some, but others here may have said, "My kids are more
important to me than others!” and ...[text shortened]... ther has parental authority over your kids, no
matter if you agree with them or not?
Kelly

Why are you taking me to task, Kelly? I was the guy who posted above that I thought this whole line of questioning was ridiculous. No sane parent would sacrifice their child for the sake of honoring a religious prohibition against blood transfusions.

Consider the following hypothetical cases:

A refuses treatment for his child because he thinks it is immoral to sacrifice another innocent child. (The case you presented to me)

B refuses treatment for his child because he thinks it is a sin to take blood transfusions. (The JW position under consideration)

C refuses treatment for his child because he thinks it will anger Grog the Sky God if surgery is performed on a rainy day.

I think that B is closer to C than to A. That is, I think B is crazy, just like C is crazy. Now, you may want to equate all these as value systems that should be honored. But I think that is just sloppy thinking.

I'm not telling anybody how to raise their children. If some pseudo-Christian apocalypse cult wants to teach their children that the end times are coming and that God will smite anybody who celebrates arbor day, that is their right. I think it is a form of child abuse, but I also think the state should be very wary about interfering with how we raise our kids. But if a child's basic welfare is at stake, and the value-system in question so patently absurd (as is the case with B and C), then those children need state protection.

Suppose some ignorant Appalachian cult decides that they will punish their children just as Leviticus recommends. They should have their children stripped from them and put into foster care. You know why? Because such a cult would be criminally insane. And that is that. Not all beliefs are equal, or deserving of honor. Some are unjustified, or stupid, or cruel, or just insane. Pointing to some passage in a text does not make it O.K. to kill a person for wearing mixed fibers, or eating shellfish, or whatever. Those beliefs are dumb. They are indications of a profoundly impoverished ability to reason. Who am I to make such determinations? I am an educated citizen.

Originally posted by bbarr
Why are you taking me to task, Kelly? I was the guy who posted above that I thought this whole line of questioning was ridiculous. No sane parent would sacrifice their child for the sake of honoring a religious prohibition against blood transfusions.

Consider the following hypothetical cases:

A refuses treatment for his child because he thinks it is im ...[text shortened]... overished ability to reason. Who am I to make such determinations? I am an educated citizen.

I'm not taking you to task; I'm pointing something out to you.

I don't think you value religion to think that a parents views on their religion
can be just turned off as if were no big deal, for you some of these topics you may
feel are no big deal, just little things; however, it may not be to them! You think
their views are ridiculous, that shows a disregard toward religious faith more than
anything else. I live in a country that allows abortions, for me that is a taking of
a human life each time it happens and the list goes on and on. I don’t think it is
a little thing.

I agree that standards (modern laws) should guide us, but I think those laws get
blurred from time to time on how we respect each other’s faith and beliefs. I also
completely disagree with the blood transfusion belief, yet I’d honor the wishes of
someone who believed it as strongly as they do.

Educated person, means what, your views and standards are the ones that all the
rest of us have to go by?
Kelly