23 Feb 10
Originally posted by FreakyKBHoh so the creation story is clear and literal. some other stories are not. can you give us an example of such a story? one that was only intended for that time and place?
Oh, I get you now.
No, there is nothing within the account of the creation of man which would suggest that it occurred in any way other than transcribed. Meaning, each of the words used in the original language are specific and pointed. Our progressive 'understanding' notwithstanding, I'll stick with God's account; His track record's a bit more assuring than man's.
23 Feb 10
Originally posted by ZahlanziNo true believer will admit that the bible might err. This is one of the issues I take with the bible. There are lots of passages which are clearly not meant for our times (I could quote some, but you can find them easily online). Some people claim that to interpret the bible anything less than purely literally is to assume superiority to God, whereas others suggest a more allegorical interpretation. I looked at vatican.va, but I couldn't find what the pope has to say about it - he gets to say the last word, I suppose.
oh so the creation story is clear and literal. some other stories are not. can you give us an example of such a story? one that was only intended for that time and place?
You see, there's a real problem for the catholic church here. If it can be demonstrated that at least one of the passages in the bible is not applicable, that would be equivalent to demonstrating that the word if God is not eternal and immutable, essentially proving that God would be more of a construct of human society and its changing culture; just as people who wear (say) blue-jeans are partly a construct of society's passion for rugged stylish outdoor clothing - a construct of fashion.
In any case, to return to the original question, it seems either there is no passage, or no-one here knows of one, that tells humanity what to do about filling & subduing the world once it full & subdued. I mean, if I tell you to fill a glass with water, well you could safely assume that you could stop filling it once it's full, right? Irrespective of whether I want you or me or no-one to drink the water (i.e. enjoy or not the fruit of your labor).
23 Feb 10
3 edits
Originally posted by fergalish"Be careful what you eat" was in essence the next Divine instruction.
So, God said, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth". Well, we've done that. What did He say we should do next?
That is man was to eat of tree of life rather than the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Man was to take into himself God's life that God and man would be united and mingled as one.
It is at that point man lost his way, meaning, purpose.
Adam was to not only multiply and fill the earth. Adam was to take into himself the divine life of God signified by the tree of life.
In failing to take into his human vessel the divine life of God Himself as indicated in the tree of life, man became a vanity of a being lost and not knowing his way or purpose.
23 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75He already provided a splinded passage on Christ in you (the believers in Christ) the hope of glory (Col. 1:27)
In your own words. What are you hoping will happen for humans?
Now that passage may be more on the individual side. But corporately and collectively God is after Christ in a corporate vessel to express God in man and man in God.
Glory is God expressed and manifested here. The hope of God being manifested is the indwelling Christ. The indwelling Christ filling, saturating, and shinning out morally, spiritually, and any other wise - is the glory of God manifested in man.
God created man for this manifestation of God in man. That is why God placed man before the tree of life. Man is a living vessel mean to take God into himself that God and man would be united in mutual indwelling.
We know that this was the eternal plan of God because He had such an intention before the foundation of the world, ie, before the creation of the universe:
"Even as He chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He graced us in the beloved." (Eph. 1:4-6)
Before the foundation of the world (before the creation) God had chosen some and marked out beforehand a destiny in Christ to be sons of God.
This passage strongly implies that the creation of the world was therefore based upon this pre-existing desire of the divine heart. First He had this desire, this good pleasure. And based upon it God laid the foundation of the world.
Revelation 4:11 would confirm the same concept:
"You are worthy,our Lord and God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, for You have created all things, and because of Your will they were, and were created."
God created all things because of His will. Because of His plan and His good pleasure to have sons with His life and nature, He created all things.
All things exist not simply because of God's will power but because of His planned will, His good pleasure which He had before the foundation of the world.
23 Feb 10
Originally posted by ZahlanziUs?
oh so the creation story is clear and literal. some other stories are not. can you give us an example of such a story? one that was only intended for that time and place?
Why should I cast pearls before a group of swine? Or are you asking for yourself, irrespective of others? Are you asking, seeking, knocking--- or are you simply attempting to mock God?
While you play your game of disaffected/sarcastic scoffer, what irritates you about religion is that--- while you want something to be true--- its results always fall far short of its promises. In this, you are not alone: I'm part of that 'us.'
The differences between you and I aren't all that great or significant, save this one: I saw through the BS that is religion, pushed beyond... and allowed truth to come to me.
Ask, seek, knock.
23 Feb 10
Originally posted by fergalishIn any case, to return to the original question, it seems either there is no passage, or no-one here knows of one, that tells humanity what to do about filling & subduing the world once it full & subdued.
No true believer will admit that the bible might err. This is one of the issues I take with the bible. There are lots of passages which are clearly not meant for our times (I could quote some, but you can find them easily online). Some people claim that to interpret the bible anything less than purely literally is to assume superiority to God, whereas o ...[text shortened]... r I want you or me or no-one to drink the water (i.e. enjoy or not the fruit of your labor).
Man was given dominion over the planet... and subsequently lost it to Satan. He has been given a few directives since then, which have all been conveniently ordered together in one source. We call this source the Bible.
Presently, the world is neither filled nor subdued (cue recent earthquake in Haiti, for instance). Moreover, man's primary responsibility now remains the same as when the Lord Jesus Christ first gave it all those years ago. One, be reconciled to God; and two, grow in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Anything else you need to know?
23 Feb 10
Originally posted by fergalish"true believer"
No true believer will admit that the bible might err. This is one of the issues I take with the bible. There are lots of passages which are clearly not meant for our times (I could quote some, but you can find them easily online). Some people claim that to interpret the bible anything less than purely literally is to assume superiority to God, whereas o ...[text shortened]... r I want you or me or no-one to drink the water (i.e. enjoy or not the fruit of your labor).
this notion leaves room for interpretation. if the bible would say that dogs fly all the time, would you be a true believer if you believed that? even if you know that dogs have no wings and mostly no way to generate anti gravity fields.
"Some people claim that to interpret the bible anything less than purely literally is to assume superiority to God"
sure, but this only is a result of the axiom "everything in the bible is god's word". once we realised this axiom was put forth by the people writing the bible in order to gain credibility we can begin to understand that we really are only denying them, not god himself. i doubt that a god who allows little girls to die of cancer today will take the time to blast anyone who lied about him then.
"he gets to say the last word, I suppose."
only for catholics. ask any of our jehovah's witnesses here, they will tell you what they think about the pope.
as another argument john paul ii was kind of an ok dude. but what of this benedict guy and his mild nazi past? or the contorversial declarations he made on several occasions? what about the murderous scheming political popes of the middle ages?
its hard to believe absolutely anything those jerks ever said would be held canon by jesus.
" if I tell you to fill a glass with water"
just imagine this glass 8000 metres high. when would you say it is full? 3/4 as some waiters think? is it 7800 metres? or is it 8000 on the point?
also how do we fill it. when a 8000 m tall glass is empty we should freakin pour a lot of water to fill it or it will take ages. but when do we slow down? shouldn't we fill it 1 m each year when it reaches 7000 when before we filled it 10 m a year?
these are the questions a catholic needs to answer but can't because some believe they would offend god if they start thinking for themselves.
23 Feb 10
1 edit
Thanks, Freaky, for succinctly elaborating the gut outline alluded to on page one.
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21 Feb '10 12:10 :: 0 recommendations
Originally posted by fergalish
So, God said, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth". Well, we've done that. What did He say we should do next?
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Simultaneously (not linear 'next'😉, become reconciled and learn and mature to full
stature... in the vernacular, 'grow up' which requires one hell of a lot of unlearning
and letting go of cultural biases, truth mixed with error, false notions and opinions."
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23 Feb 10
Originally posted by FreakyKBHyou can't have looked through all the bullscheisse since you still think that the dude that killed the canaan people is the same dude that sent his only son to die at the hand of barbaric monkeys so that they could be saved and learn some lessons in love.
Us?
Why should I cast pearls before a group of swine? Or are you asking for yourself, irrespective of others? Are you asking, seeking, knocking--- or are you simply attempting to mock God?
While you play your game of disaffected/sarcastic scoffer, what irritates you about religion is that--- while you want [b]something to b ...[text shortened]... BS that is religion, pushed beyond... and allowed truth to come to me.
Ask, seek, knock.[/b]
but i really am asking. i haven't read the whole bible. and even if i had, i have no way of knowing which passages you believe should be taken literrally and which should be interpreted.
23 Feb 10
Originally posted by Zahlanziyou can't have looked through all the bullscheisse since you still think...
you can't have looked through all the bullscheisse since you still think that the dude that killed the canaan people is the same dude that sent his only son to die at the hand of barbaric monkeys so that they could be saved and learn some lessons in love.
but i really am asking. i haven't read the whole bible. and even if i had, i have no way of knowing which passages you believe should be taken literrally and which should be interpreted.
I'd be lying if I told you that I haven't been supremely offended by some of the things I've read in the Bible. Equally honest, however, my offense has been mostly directed at being called 'not good enough.' To me, that was some nerve. I mean, really: look at me! I'm a nice guy, pay most of my taxes, never (or, only seldom or with very good reason) do the things that I find offensive, help people whenever convenient, etc., etc., etc.. How dare God find me offensive!
However, once I got over myself and listened to what was actually being said--- in light of what was said to be at stake--- I finally realized why my very existence is such an offense. Thankfully, His message doesn't stop there but instead goes on to talk about such things as redemption and reconciliation. A love story for the ages, really.
Not to discount anyone else's situation, but the first order of business is to secure your own air mask first. While you may hear bits and pieces of the message in random places, your best bet for finding and fleshing out the truth is not on the Spirituality forum of an internet chess site.
24 Feb 10
Originally posted by ZahlanziMy respect can't be that easily given as this post has made me lose respect for you.
your respect is too easily given for one that most likely didn't mean to say that.
you must ask for clarification first considering who the recipient is and some of his past posts.
24 Feb 10
Originally posted by AThousandYoungwhat did? the fact that i asked you to weigh your facts before making a decision? to consider what the other one meant to say?
My respect can't be that easily given as this post has made me lose respect for you.
actually nevermind, don't answer i don't care
24 Feb 10
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyWell GB! thats a very diplomatic answer that is easy to put into words but potentially difficult to put into practice
Thanks, Freaky, for succinctly elaborating the gut outline alluded to on page one.
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21 Feb '10 12:10 :: 0 recommendations
Originally posted by fergalish
So, God said, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth". Well, we've done that. What did He say we should do next?
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...[text shortened]... false notions and opinions."
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24 Feb 10
2 edits
Originally posted by Zahlanzi
"true believer"
this notion leaves room for interpretation. if the bible would say that dogs fly all the time, would you be a true believer if you believed that? even if you know that dogs have no wings and mostly no way to generate anti gravity fields.
A true believer would just ignore the evidence. Here's what they might say: "God simply chooses not to let us see dogs flying now because we're not worthy. But really, dogs fly."
once we realised this axiom was put forth by the people writing the bible in order to gain credibility we can begin to understand that we really are only denying them, not god himself.
Seems to me many people (not just here) have not yet realised this.
just imagine this glass 8000 metres high. when would you say it is full?
When the level of water is at the top - 8000m. For water in a glass "full" is very well defined. For people on the earth, its not so easy; for a working definition, how about using ecological footprints to measure "full". It's not so important to get precisely the right definition for "full", because I expect that any reasonably logical scientific measure will broadly give the same answer (in the sense that you measure "50% full", I measure "200% full", but either way we need to think about the full earth problem).
-- edit:
You know, thinking about this suggested something to me. Again, if I say to you "fill that glass with water", it's clear that you should stop when it's full, I mean, I didn't say "overfill that glass", nor did I say "fill that glass, and when it's full keep pouring water in". So maybe all the Roman Catholics should questions their church's abhorrence for birth control.