08 Sep 06
Originally posted by sasquatch672I never said I know more than anyone else, I was only asking what other people think the afterlife MAY be like. I was born a catholic but a few years ago I found everything started to make less sense and church seemed to become a mass (pun partially intended) support group. What I do believe is that there is a being/creator so incomprehensibly powerful I may never understand who/what it is but not in a traditional christian context.
Isn't this AMAZINGLY arrogant of you? I'm a Roman Catholic (devil worshipper to you). I believe the whole thing, but I don't presume to know any better, or have any more insight, than any other person. Isn't it AMAZINGLY arrogant to assume you know better than someone else? Isn't pride one of the seven deadly sins?
I knew this thread was going to offend a few people (christians in particular) but ask yourself, are you spiritual or religious? Maybe that will help make your contributions here a little more insightful than needless banter about how "AMAZINGLY" arrogant I am and the seemingly endless knowedge I apparently possess.
08 Sep 06
Originally posted by sasquatch672Just a side note: D3vilboy, I don't think your response is necessary, because I don't think that comment was directed at you. If you look at who sasquath672 was referring to, it was my post. But I thank you for responding nonetheless. Although I do find contention with what you say about mostly Christians taking offense - by his own admission sasquatch672 is a Catholic....
Isn't this AMAZINGLY arrogant of you? I'm a Roman Catholic (devil worshipper to you). I believe the whole thing, but I don't presume to know any better, or have any more insight, than any other person. Isn't it AMAZINGLY arrogant to assume you know better than someone else? Isn't pride one of the seven deadly sins?
But moving on to my rebuttal to sasquatch672 -
I don't believe it's amazingly arrogant of me at all. I think you are incorrect with equating arrogance with confidence. Why do you assume that just because I think I can (a) give more than just a guess in answer to that question (b) supply strong evidence that allows my opinion to be trusted beyond reasonable doubt (c) be willing to stand up for my beliefs and (d) be willing to hear objections to them to answer them and not shrink when I face the contentions of others.
To continue, yes I am confident in the sense that I do think that I "know better" than some average person off the street. I want to stress that I'm not saying that in a prideful at all; of course, I've got more to learn. (You insert "than any other person;" that is not the case, because of course their are things I can learn from others.) But isn't that the logical conclusion that because I have studied my beliefs, their origin, their objections, etc, that I would "have more insight" than the average person off the street, just because I have been around that more than they?
Also, don't assume that I am in concordance with extreme Judeo-Christian beliefs that Catholicism is of the devil. (You may have said that in jest but neverhteless.) Yes I probably differ with you on some beliefs, but we are very similar on others. It's a matter of perspective in who's right or wrong. I'm not going to draw a line in the sand in saying who's right or wrong. I'm simply stating that if you the reader are willing to hear my answer with reasoning to support it, then I will take the time to consolidate it and post it.
To conclude, for my own clarification, what do you sasquatch672 mean when you say you "believe the whole thing"?
08 Sep 06
4 edits
The God that the Bible speaks about is not the God of the dead but "the God of the living." Death is an enemy to be conquered.
It is a misunderstanding of the Bible to believe that God wants you to go into the realm of death to have to meet Him there. The emphasis in the New Testament is resurrection from the dead rather than people having to abide in death to commune with God.
Death is therefore a realm to be abolished and nullified.
The other misconception which is popular is that the eternal destiny of the saved is up in heaven. There is a heaven. But the eternal kingdom of God extends throughout the entire universe. We do not escape to go to heaven forever. Any visit to heaven is not permenant.
John saw the holy city New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God. So we are to pray "Thy kingdom come" rather than "Thy kingdom go."
The eternal destiny of the saved should be thought of as God Himself. His nature and His life are dispensed into the redeemed to make them sons of God.
Those who reject the salvation in Christ perish in the second death, which the Bible discribes as the lake of fire. In fact even Hell and Death themselves are said to be cast into the lake of fire. Hell really just means Hades or the realm of the dead.
The redeemed enjoy the sonship with the Father and the new heaven and new earth with the New Jerusalem as the capital of the new creation. They reign forever and ever.
They reign over the peoples of the new earth who will be the population on the earth after this age and after the millennial age of God's fulfilled promises to Israel.
The lost suffer eternal punishment for their rejection of God's gracious offer of salvation.
With of these details in the Bible I personally feel that there are some unknowns about the matter. We are told what is adaquate for our belief and salvation. I would not say that we are told exhaustively everything so that no questions remain.
What we are told seems to be deemed to God as adaquate for us to know and be saved through Christ's salvation.
I myself still could ask questions about it after 30 some years of studying the Bible.
09 Sep 06
Originally posted by jaywillThat sums it up....the purpose of the Bible is to bring men to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. If it isn’t pertinent to our salvation, the Bible's not going to go into a lot of detail because we don't have a need to know.
What we are told seems to be deemed to God as adaquate for us to know and be saved through Christ's salvation.
b]
Out of curiosity: How many people posting here have actually studied the Bible? That's how I got saved. I wanted to see for myself what it said and started reading the Gospels. When I got about halfway through John, I realized this Jesus people were talking about was not like any other person I had ever read about. He is alive, seated at God's right hand making intercession for old Masscat, imperfections and all.
09 Sep 06
Originally posted by masscatThe gospels are great but have you read the prequels? The old testament is nothing more than the case for Israeli property rights with God condoning rape and murder when gentiles get in the way. I'm glad you've had the "John experience" but you won't get it from the old testament. One is a Guide to Love and the other is a Guide to Hate. 🙂
Out of curiosity: How many people posting here have actually studied the Bible? I wanted to see for myself what it said and started reading the Gospels.
09 Sep 06
One thing we do *know* as stated above is that breathing stops, as does brain activity and all other body functions such as circulation etc...
Now I think I'm pretty much defined by my experiences and memories etc... heck if I didn't have any memories or knowledge of anything I think I'd find it difficult to interact with anything at all!...what else happens when we die? well we also decompose (as someone else has also stated) and eventually the only legacy we leave on this earth is our bones and teeth.
Getting back to the termination of brain activity upon death...I see no other feasable outlook other than I lose the ability to do everything that I could do when I was alive...This includes being aware of myself...essentially, unless someone presents me with some sound evidence to the contrary it would seem that we simply cease to exist
09 Sep 06
5 edits
Originally posted by ngeisler88hmm...exactly how would you define proof ngeisler? 😉
Just a side note: D3vilboy, I don't think your response is necessary, because I don't think that comment was directed at you. If you look at who sasquath672 was referring to, it was my post. But I thank you for responding nonetheless. Although I do find contention with what you say about mostly Christians taking offense - by his own admission sasquatch672 , what do you sasquatch672 mean when you say you "believe the whole thing"?
I am willing to say right here right now that for any proof(?) you bring to us of your faith I can construct a counterproof(?) that something I just made up is correct, and yours is wrong...By this I am saying that certain facts and logical deductions you present to us will be founded upon almost fundamental principles that require faith as opposed to their being axioms (by using axiom here I mean obviously true inspite of any religious or non religious subscriptions, that everything we know and have experienced can be based upon it and that does not leave itself open for contradiction either now or by virtue of what we discover in the future).
09 Sep 06
Originally posted by D3vilBoyWorm fodder or ashes in the sea breeze.
I've read and heard a lot about people saying that if you lived a religious, god-worshiping existence you go to heaven and if you didn't, off to hell with you, but is there really a heaven or a hell? what evidence do religions have to prove that paradise is all sunshine and rainbows or hell being a flaming sulphurous pit? Maybe that's where the "faith" part ...[text shortened]... n... Nothing at all? Any guesses as to what a post bucket-kicking existence might be like?
09 Sep 06
1 edit
Originally posted by D3vilBoyIn order to know what is after death, one needs to develop the ability to experience their consciousness "out" of the body (commonly called an "out of body experience", or "OBE" ).
I've read and heard a lot about people saying that if you lived a religious, god-worshiping existence you go to heaven and if you didn't, off to hell with you, but is there really a heaven or a hell? what evidence do religions have to prove that paradise is all sunshine and rainbows or hell being a flaming sulphurous pit? Maybe that's where the "faith" part n... Nothing at all? Any guesses as to what a post bucket-kicking existence might be like?
Certain ancient cultures had organized priesthoods that mastered this ability and were able to observe in fair detail the process of transition of consciousness after death. Two texts that preserve some of this knowledge are the Egyptian Book of the Dead, and the Tibetan Book of the Dead.
A modern day pioneer of out of body exploration was Robert Monroe; a google on his name should lead you to his website, where one can find fairly detailed descriptions of the after death realms.
I personally experienced "out of body" states over two decades ago. While I do not explore those dimensions at present, I can vouch for the power and and vividness of such experiences. They are subjective of course and don't technically prove anything, but for one who experiences OBE, it's hard to invalidate the realness of the experience.
After researching the matter on and off for 30 years, my take on what happens is roughly this --
1. death is a transition to a dimension that is of a "finer" vibration than the one we find ourselves in now. We can think of it as the 4th dimension, for want of a better term.
2. the process of consciousness shedding the body is akin to a kind of decompression, not unlike a deepsea diver slowly adjusting to lesser pressures.
3. the decompression stages are followed by a period of rest. These stages may or may not be accompanied by the presence of "spirit-helpers", some of whom may seem familar to the departing consciousness. These spirit-helpers might take many forms. Some seem to be hallucinations projected by the psyche, others are actual entities attempting to interact with the dead person, who may or may not be receptive to their presence. After the rest, a sense of reinvigoration is present, which answers the typical sentiment of an older person that they are "finished" with life and just want to go to sleep forever. The burnout feeling of old age is washed away during the decompression and reinvigoration process.
4. If a soul has a strong attachment to physical life, or has serious unfinished business, or is full of fear about letting go of their body, etc., they may get "trapped" in between the 3rd and 4th dimensions. (These are what are called in traditional religions the "purgatory" realms). This is known as a "ghost", and they are more common than one might think. Fortunately, this phase of confusion is temporary, although some ghosts can remain confused for hundreds of years. Most eventually move on.
5. The majority of souls go to a particular dimension (world) that is quite similar to our current Earth. The main difference is that light emanates from within forms, not solely from the Sun (as is the case here). In fact, in this higher dimension, there is no Sun and no outer space. Time is also very different. The present moment is more vivid. But people still exist in human form (the light, or astral body), interact, learn, celebrate, work, rest, etc.
6. In that world, souls reasses their progress, and receive mentoring from guides of various sorts. Much as on Earth, learning continues.
7. If deemed necessary, a soul will reincarnate in order to complete lessons unfinished and impossible to get in any other form. Not all souls reincarnate, but for the past few thousand years on Earth, most have. In answer to the question, "how can souls be reincarnating if population is increasing exponentially?", not all souls on Earth come from Earth. The universe is a big place.
8. Hell realms do in fact exist, but they are temporary and remedial. Only souls who have badly messed up (murderers, etc.) end up there. They are not "put" there by some judging God, rather, they are drawn there by their own energy. Much as on Earth, like attracts like. They stay there until their karma burns out, or until they are willing to begin a responsible reassessment of their actions on Earth. There are spirit helpers assigned to them to help them if possible. Their suffering becomes their purification. But no soul suffers "eternally". Only a slim minority end up here. Some reincarnate immediately, into more difficult circumstances in order to balance karma.
9. There are higher worlds beyond the 4th dimension; many of these correspond to traditional descriptions of "heaven". But they must be earned, by exceptional lives lived on Earth, dedicated to truth, spiritual advancement, the development of wisdom and compassion, etc. Few advance beyond the 4th dimension. Most remain there for a period of time, then return to Earth. The basis principle is that outlined in the movie "Groundhog Day"; one can't leave Earth for good until one has mastered one's lessons here, and above all, learned to love it here.
10. One life is extremely important, but from another perspective, it's limited as well, as we've all been at this for a long time, and will be for the foreseeable future. We are part of a larger galactic collective or "soul family" that is learning along with us. It's a very big show out there and we on Earth are only a very small part of the cosmic cathedral.
All that said, maybe we just die. 😉
Either way, what is really important is what we're doing in our lives now.
As the Buddha once said, "if you want to know your past life or lives, examine your present circumstances. If you want to know your future life or lives, examine your present actions."
09 Sep 06
Originally posted by MixoNot so. The entire OT testifies of Christ. IF the non-Jews of the OT would have served God they could have been saved also. e.g. Naomi. Of course Jews didn't always serve God either, and they were punished for it. God waits patiently for men to repent and turn to Him, but His patience in dealing with rebellious people does come to an end, and they will be destroyed. That is the message....the only way to avoid being destroyed is to choose to serve the living God.
The gospels are great but have you read the prequels? The old testament is nothing more than the case for Israeli property rights with God condoning rape and murder when gentiles get in the way. I'm glad you've had the "John experience" but you won't get it from the old testament. One is a Guide to Love and the other is a Guide to Hate. 🙂
09 Sep 06
Originally posted by masscatYou bring out a couple of good points.
That sums it up....the purpose of the Bible is to bring men to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. If it isn’t pertinent to our salvation, the Bible's not going to go into a lot of detail because we don't have a need to know.
Out of curiosity: How many people posting here have actually studied the Bible? That's how I got saved. I wanted to see for m ...[text shortened]... live, seated at God's right hand making intercession for old Masscat, imperfections and all.
Some people think that a book supposedly authored by God should simply satisfy our curiosity about everything. But the Bible doesn't tell me what is on the dark side of the moon. It doesn't tell me what is going on on any one of the possibly millions of planets in the galaxy, let alone in all the billions of galaxies. We'll just have to wait to find out.
No the Bible is more of a life preserver thrown out to a drowning world.
It speaks of salvation through Christ and of God's eternal purpose to build up the New Jerusalem as the collective and corporate Bride of Christ.
You were hungry so you read. I don't think that anyone who does not have a spiritual hunger can much advance forward spiritually.
You ask openly how many here have read the Bible. I have found that the Bible's existence has a funny effect on people. Some people, the less they read the Bible, the more they fancy themselves as experts on its contents.
So you often find that people who are self assured that they know what is in the Bible are the people who least take the time to examine it.
10 Sep 06
Originally posted by masscatSteady now.
[b]Not so. The entire OT testifies of Christ.
The book of Job is about some god tormenting an innocent guy, like a sadistic kid dismantling a live insect. :'(
In the book of Exodus, God says you won't be punished if you beat another man's slave and the poor slave takes more than 48 hours to die. ðŸ˜
How does this testify of Christ?