09 Mar 05
1 edit
Originally posted by DarfiusI also said "We will have earned it."
I also said "We will have earned it."
If we had all been created that, we would not have earned it. Our love would have been coerced and not true. You have to understand God's motivation before you can understand His work.
Yeah, I didn’t think you’d let me ignore that. 😉 I’ll just say that that statement goes against fundamental Protestant doctrine, since Luther, that we can do nothing to “earn” it—it is completely God’s grace. Well, that’s off-topic here.)
If we had all been created that, we would not have earned it. Our love would have been coerced and not true. You have to understand God's motivation before you can understand His work.
This goes back to dk3nny’s question about God creating us because he was lonely and wanted someone to love him—and coerced love is not true (or even possible, really)—but we all went off on the suffering, etc. Is dk3nny’s characterization of God’s motivation accurate (up until the “suffering” part anyway)?
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by eagles54From the time of Adam up until Moses, only those people who had correctly passed down the true story of God were saved, but who's fault is that? Surely not God? Joseph knew the true God. So did Abraham and Lot. So did Noah. When the world ran out of people who remembered the true God exactly as He was, God appeared to Moses. Moses wrote down the history of God in relation to man and told the Jews how to reach God. The Jews have been a beacon of God's existence ever since. Before the time of Jesus, Gentiles who adhered to the Law of Moses were saved right alongside Jews. Most Gentiles hated the Jews, however. I'll leave it open as to why.
What about all those people between the time of Adam and Eve and Jesus? What happened to them?
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by vistesdLuther's doctrine was that our works cannot save us. However, accepting the works of God can. That's how you earn it. By reaching out and taking it. I suppose I should say accept rather than earn. "We will have accepted it."
[b]I also said "We will have earned it."
Yeah, I didn’t think you’d let me ignore that. 😉 I’ll just say that that statement goes against fundamental Protestant doctrine, since Luther, that we can do nothing to “earn” it—it is completely God’s grace. Well, that’s off-topic here.)
If we had all been created that, we would not have earned it. ...[text shortened]... 3nny’s characterization of God’s motivation accurate (up until the “suffering” part anyway)?
Yes, God both wanted to share love and receive it. That was His motivation.
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusWhat about children, or those unable to do so through infirmity of mind? Are they relegated to hell?
From the time of Adam up until Moses, only those people who had correctly passed down the true story of God were saved, but who's fault is that?
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by eagles54Children or the mentally retarded all go to heaven. Have you noticed how children and mentally retarded love without demands? They are gifts from God. Children who die before reaching the ability to decipher right from wrong go to Heaven.
What about children, or those unable to do so through infirmity of mind? Are they relegated to hell?
09 Mar 05
1 edit
Originally posted by DarfiusI suppose I should say accept rather than earn. "We will have accepted it."
Luther's doctrine was that our [b]works cannot save us. However, accepting the works of God can. That's how you earn it. By reaching out and taking it. I suppose I should say accept rather than earn. "We will have accepted it." ...[text shortened]... wanted to share love and receive it. That was His motivation.
[/b]
Okay.
Yes, God both wanted to share love and receive it. That was His motivation.
When you add "share love," it strengthens your argument.
The question now is this (and I'm going to have to think about it for awhile): On the grand scale (not just personal "suffering for love" ), and given that many people reject that love (or simply flee from it), is the love worth the cost in terms of all the monstrous brutality that free will seems to lead to? Does the "good" outweigh the "evil?" What if only a slim minority accept the gift? [Okay, that's three questions. 😛]
09 Mar 05
1 edit
On the grand scale (not just personal "suffering for love" ), and given that many people reject that love (or simply flee from it), is the love worth the cost in terms of all the monstrous brutality that free will seems to lead to?
Very subjective. Those who suffer for God and with God think so. Those who suffer without God do not think so. It comes down to if God exists, then yes, it is worth it to Him, because His goal is to get people into Heaven, not keep them from Hell. In other words, He isn't forcing people to suffer. They choose to by denying Him. So yes, it's worth it. Why should some people never have existence because some other people would ruin it for themselves?
Does the "good" outweigh the "evil?"
By far. Do you have someone you love? That should already outweigh anything.
What if only a slim minority accept the gift?
To God, it's worth it. He's motivated by love, not by statistics. And He gave everyone the same choice, so His conscience is clear.
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusLet's say a child is born into a family whose spiritual beliefs are not Christian, so that this child really has little chance of coming to Jesus Christ because there is no support or encouragement of such a condition.
He's motivated by love, not by statistics. And He gave everyone the same choice, so His conscience is clear.
Darfius, can you explain to me how this child ever had a choice? How is this child supposed to overcome the socio-religious upbringing they've experienced? Are you saying hell is this child's reward for being born into a certain family?
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by eagles54I wonder why you guys keep bringing children into this. I will repeat, if the child dies a child, he or she automatically goes to heaven. If they grow up and decide for themselves (without searching for any answers or verification) that the religion their parents had was correct, then yes, hell is justified for them.
Let's say a child is born into a family whose spiritual beliefs are not Christian, so that this child really has little chance of coming to Jesus Christ because there is no support or encouragement of such a condition.
Darfius, can you explain to me how this child ever had a choice? How is this child supposed to overcome the socio-religious upbringing t ...[text shortened]... e experienced? Are you saying hell is this child's reward for being born into a certain family?
All of us are converts, eagle.
10 Mar 05
1 edit
Originally posted by dj2beckerCONVERSATIONS WITH GOD[/b]
[b]The world is now under God's Curse (Genesis 3:17) because of man's rebellion against God's Word.
With our full faith in God's goodness and in Christ's redemption, we can recognize that our present sufferings can be turned to His glory and our good.
"G'day God, it's me again. The Aussie Atheist."
"Oh Gawd, not you again. Are you here to talk about my hypocrisy again?"
"No. I'm just confused. It seems that your righthand man, Darfius keeps telling us that you are all about love, compassion, beauty, kissing kookaburras and everything noice."
"Noice?"
"Oh sorry, that's Bogan Melburnian for 'nice'. If you watched Kath and Kim you would understand your WORSHIP."
"Oh get on with it. I don't have forever you know."
"You don't? I would have thought if anyone did, you would..."
"Shut UP!"
"Sorry LORD. It's just that according to djBekcer the world is cursed cos Adam and Eve rebelled against you, and that's why you support the kiddy slashing, pregnant woman beating and death, rape and murder."
"Yeah. Well, apparently that's what I said in the Bible. I can't confirm or deny that is actually my personal view but what's your question?"
"How come Darfius says that you are pure LOVE and dj2becker says that if we have full faith in your goodness, our suffering will be turned to your glory. Isn't this confused?"
"I don't see your problem. Darfius says that I am pure LOVE. Well I am, just read the old testament and you can see that I love bloodsports...particularly slaughtering innocent women and children."
"Yet we are supposed to see this is good?"
"Well don't bloody ask me, I didn't write the Bible! Goodnight."
10 Mar 05
Originally posted by AlcraYes I see the difference, my answer is the same, except I'll add He
I think the question was TO not FOR.
i.e. What has god done TO you.
See the difference?
saved me and changed me. I'm no longer the way I was, I no longer
am living for the pleasure that I thought was so important before
I became a Christian. He has given me a balance in my life that was
not there before, one that helps guide me when temptations come.
He has forgiven me of all the things I have done that require either
judgment or forgiveness. He guides and protects my life, even in the
worst of times He is there and in the best of times, never leaving or
forsaking me. To answer the question on a personal level.
Kelly
10 Mar 05
Originally posted by dk3nnyLucifer did not get a deal with God for souls. Satan rebelled against
Why?
Why has he bothered with all this then?
Is this meant to be a test? if we all started in heaven then why did he put us here on earth and rock the boat? So some of us will end up in hell?
Why bother with the earth and this test if we could all just party away up in heaven. Did he do a deal with lucifer to give him some souls too so this is the agreed testing ground to determine who gets lucky? Who gets on the team vs whose left on the bench
God just as man did, causing the earth to be cursed. Most of the
suffering we get is self inflicted by man on man crimes.
I don't know why God what He does.
Kelly