Spirituality
19 Sep 17
21 Sep 17
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeTell me why I can't love someone who hates me, if I don't hate them.
Sir, you are describing altruism, not love.
21 Sep 17
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeYes He did, there wasn't an exception clause for loving everyone. I suggest you read Matthew 5:44-46!
Tell me if you can love someone 'you' hate? (aka an enemy).
God didn't tell you to 'love people who view you as an enemy.'
21 Sep 17
Originally posted by @dj2beckerAgape is a Greek word, but we are told in Wiki that "There are few instances of the word agape in polytheistic Greek literature. Bauer's Lexicon mentions a sepulchral inscription, most likely to honor a polytheistic army officer held in "high esteem" by his country." What seems to have given the word its cultural significance is its adoption in Christian writing.
The atheist cannot understand agape because they conflate it with eros.
"In the New Testament, the word agape is often used to describe God's love. However, other forms of the word are used in a negative context, such as the various forms of the verb agapaō. Examples include:
2 Timothy 4:10— "for Demas hath forsaken me, having loved [agapēsas] this present world...".
John 12:43— "For they loved [ēgapēsan] the praise of men more than the praise of God."
John 3:19— "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved [ēgapēsan] darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."
Karl Barth distinguishes agape from eros on the basis of its origin and unconditional character. In agape, humanity does not merely express its nature, but transcends it. Agape identifies with the interests of the neighbor "in utter independence of the question of his attractiveness" and with no expectation of reciprocity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape
Traditional Catholic teaching distinguishes between "natural" love and "supernatural" love, indicating clearly that the latter is much superior to the former. The former is called eros, the latter agape.
https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6565
A more ambitious exercise in definition is this one at https://fromerostoagape.wordpress.com/2012/08/09/eros-romantic-love-and-agape-unconditional-love/
"The Greeks had four words to describe what we call love, Eros, (romantic love), Phileo, (enjoyment, fondness, friendship), Storge (family loyalty) and Agape (unconditional love with stick-ability). ...
These are hierarchical and the greatest, of course is Agape: "Agape puts the beloved first and sacrifices pride, self interest and possessions for the sake of that beloved. This is the love that God has for us which inspired him to sacrifice His son and for His son to obey and sacrifice himself. It is the kind of love we are commanded to have for one another. It is a love of supreme greatness."
There is a lot more material to be found by Googling Agape and Eros together, but the essence is always going to remain the same.
So what do we learn from @dj2becker's post? We learn that Christianity has cornered the market, that only Christians understand love, and that it is not possible for an atheist to love as profoundly and deeply as a Christian can. Indeed, since agape is a divine form of love, then by definition it is exclusive to Christians and quite out of reach for any atheist.
This may seem a very satisfying state of affairs to a Christian.
21 Sep 17
Originally posted by @dj2beckerFunny you should say that. I once had a friend who was going through a divorce and said: She can have what ever the hell she wants, but she isn't getting the dog. Obviously he felt more love for the dog!!!
There should obviously be a distinction between the kind of love someone would have for their wife compared to the love they have for their dog.
-VR
22 Sep 17
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeMatthew 5:
Tell me if you can love someone 'you' hate? (aka an enemy).
God didn't tell you to 'love people who view you as an enemy.'
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
22 Sep 17
Originally posted by @bigdoggproblemIndeed.
Someday this forum will learn to use youtube links.
[youtube Haddaway - What is Love?]HEXWRTEbj1I[/youtube]
22 Sep 17
Originally posted by @kellyjayWhat is [love]? Love is [enter relevant text].
Matthew 5:
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love ...[text shortened]... the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
If the answer is consistently to be found by identifying the relevant scriptural texts, then the task can be assigned to a decent piece of sofware, with the scripture in its database tables and a sentence generator programmed to handle all questions.
Obviously this project cannot be left in Google's hands, since Google's answers are not reliably from the right scripture.
None of you truly believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself. (Bukhari, Muslim)
Allah will ask on the Day of Judgment: “Where are those who loved each other for the sake of My glory? Today, on a day when there is no shade but Mine, I shall shade them with My shade.” (Muslim)
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “There are people from the servants of God who are neither prophets nor martyrs, (but) the prophets and martyrs will envy them on the Day of Resurrection. . .They are those who love one another for the spirit of God. . .I swear by God, their faces will glow and they will be (sitting) in (pulpits of) light. They will have no fear (on the day) when the people will have fear, and they will not grieve when the people will grieve.” He then recited the verse: “Behold! Verily for the friends of God, there is no fear, nor shall they grieve.” (Quran, 10:62)
(Recorded in Sunan of Abu Dawood, Hadith 1563)
The Prophet Muhammad said, “O God, grant me life as a poor man, cause me to die as a poor man and resurrect me in the company of the poor.” His wife asked him why he said that, and he replied: “Because (the poor) will enter Paradise (before) the rich. Do not turn away a poor man…even if all you can give is half a date. If you love the poor and bring them near you, God will bring you near Him on the Day of Resurrection.” (At-Tirmidthi)
To be honest, Google's answers are not even reliably from any scripture. So what is needed is censorship to prune away those incorrect answers and limit our horizons to the approved orthodoxy.
Instead of
What is [love]? Love is [enter relevant text]
We need
What is [love]? Love is [enter relevant approved, properly Christian text].
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22 Sep 17
Originally posted by @avalanchethecatWhy is it foolish to believe that someone who cannot comprehend the existence of God will have difficulty understanding the love of God?
Just when I think you can't be any more of a fool you go and prove me wrong.
edit - but I still love you, albeit probably in a way you don't understand
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22 Sep 17
Originally posted by @finneganThe likes of Ghost seem to agree that they cannot love their enemies. This is seemingly only possible if you have the unconditional love of God in your heart.
Agape is a Greek word, but we are told in Wiki that "There are few instances of the word agape in polytheistic Greek literature. Bauer's Lexicon mentions a sepulchral inscription, most likely to honor a polytheistic army officer held in "high esteem" by his country." What seems to have given the word its cultural significance is its adoption in Christian ...[text shortened]... t of reach for any atheist.
This may seem a very satisfying state of affairs to a Christian.
22 Sep 17
Originally posted by @dj2beckerHave you seen God described by non-believers? It isn't God that they describe, but whatever passes for God between their ears.
Why is it foolish to believe that someone who cannot comprehend the existence of God will have difficulty understanding the love of God?
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22 Sep 17
Originally posted by @dj2beckerNot even then. The best you can muster is goodwill.
The likes of Ghost seem to agree that they cannot love their enemies. This is seemingly only possible if you have the unconditional love of God in your heart.
That's not love.
22 Sep 17
Originally posted by @dj2beckerQuite likely so then. As long as you define love in that way then atheists would certainly be excluded.
The one that doesn't believe in God and hence does not believe in "Agapeo" which is defined as the love of God.
Do you find that helpful on some level?