22 Jul 19
@divegeester saidA brief answer:
Philokalia
What is the point of god burning people alive for eternity?
https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/spirituality/what-is-the-point-of-eternal-suffering.181749/page-23#post_4072043
[Page 23 of this thread]
Another short answer:
https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/spirituality/what-is-the-point-of-eternal-suffering.181749/page-20#post_4071031
[Page 20 of this thread]
A longer answer that addresses the topic:
https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/spirituality/what-is-the-point-of-eternal-suffering.181749/page-17#post_4070938
[page 17 of this thread]
Another brief answer:
https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/spirituality/what-is-the-point-of-eternal-suffering.181749/page-16#post_4070910
[from page 16]
A good answer pertaining as to who sends who to hell and thus who i sresponsible for the suffering:
https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/spirituality/what-is-the-point-of-eternal-suffering.181749/page-15#post_4070272
[from page 15]
I could go on.
This has been covered directly & indirectly many times.
Take your pick.
And... if your reply is to simply ask again what is the point without having adequately addressed any of these, it would be folly to engage you further.
22 Jul 19
@philokalia saidHere are your alleged replies and my comments:
A brief answer:
https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/spirituality/what-is-the-point-of-eternal-suffering.181749/page-23#post_4072043
[Page 23 of this thread]
Another short answer:
https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/spirituality/what-is-the-point-of-eternal-suffering.181749/page-20#post_4071031
[Page 20 of this thread]
A longer answer that addresses the topic:
...[text shortened]... point without having adequately addressed any of these,[/i] it would be folly to engage you further.
1) Eternal suffering doesn't move to a goal, but it is the fruit of the choices that people made, and thus is their just ends.
Here you claim there is no point. No point to the eternal torture of billions of souls. ‘It is just their ends’ you say. So pointless torture. Kind of my point actually, but clearly not your position.
2) If you mean 'point' as in the reason behind it, then it is people who have consciously rejected God (that also have immortal souls) being separated from the God that they chose to reject, and the fruits of this is what the authors of the Bible call the outer darkness.
Yes KellyJay keeps re-explaining WHAT is going to happen...but like you seems unable to bring any sort of point to eternally torturing billions of people.
3a) It's actually a matter of people getting their wishes fulfilled.
and you wonder why you are mocked in this forum...
3b)Those who do not wish to be close to God will not be close to God, they will live in the condition that they have chosen for them self. Is also certainly true that the word of God has been presented far and wide and that process is still being filled.
We can also bring up the passage from Luke chapter 12 which deals with the number of blows that a person will receive varying based upon how much somebody knows. I have no idea how that applies. It could apply very broadly in people who have all manner of excuses that were even in Christian societies might be dealed with in a manner that is far more liberal than even I would think. This is certainly not my decision to be made.
And that's kind of the beauty of it. No one has the right to make these decisions except God alone so we can just have faith in the Justice of God and worry about ourselves.
Another post by you confirming that there is no point to it, no point to the torture of billions of people. And yet you defend your version of God for doing it
4a)If you mean 'point' as in it is a process moving towards an end, there is no point.
“there is no point...
4b)If you mean 'point' as in the reason behind it, then it is people who have consciously rejected God (that also have immortal souls) being separated from the God that they chose to reject, and the fruits of this is what the authors of the Bible call the outer darkness
once again, we are in need of yet more exegesis on the how it has happened. The argument you need to be addressing is that there is no moral, no intellectual, no practical point to torturing billions of people in secret and then relying on the likes of you to tell people about it.
5a) As stated before: Hell is uncreated. It is actually a byproduct of circumstances. As one of the essayists that I quoted stated: we really do all go to the same place. It is merely that a part of it is the outer darkness, and this is the portion reserved for people who have decided to not seek communion with God and who have not repented of their sins. We can also break this down again...
once again, yes yes, we all know this
5b) If a man clearly has committed a crime and must go to jail, what actually sends him to jail? The judge, or the actions that put him before the judge? Who is responsible for him being in jail -- the criminal who committed the crime, or the judge?
how does this silly and inept analogy in any way explain the point of a supreme being deliberately keeping billions of people supernaturally alive in order to torture them for not believing in him? Indeed, as I asked KellyJay, what “crimes” have these people committed against a super-being of infinite love, mercy, power and control...that he feels it is logical to torture them for eternity?
22 Jul 19
@divegeester saidYou have no grasp of God's righteousness and holiness. You also don't see man's wickedness and evil, even as you complain about it all the time. If you did you'd realize His mercy being given right now each day towards us ready. He is putting up with our sins now, unlike you and I in this world we see what touches us and that around us, He experiences every crime with our hate and lust each moment of the day. His love towards us is the only thing keeping us all out of Hell right now, He would be justified to simply destroyed us all for the crimes against the Holy One we do all of the time.
No I don’t think that at all and it is certainly not “the other way round” of what pointed out to you in my previous post.
What “crimes” against God could a person possibly commit which warrants the punishment of begin supernaturally kept alive and burnt for eternity?
Why don’t you just pause and think that over, imagine the reality of that and the concept of justice.
The reality of a good and just God should terrify you, it means that without exception each and every crime, hateful deed and word will be accounted for, because He is good and we are not. Our only hope is God who is attempting to save us from standing before us in our sins, by taking on our wickedness and sin upon Himself to save us. This is not a little thing, but some treat is as if its all God's fault we are sinners, God doesn't tempt anyone to sin, He cannot be tempted with evil. So many of our curses due to our wicked hearts are directed against the Holy One who loves and is saving us. It will all be displayed on the day of judgment, nothing will be hidden there will be no excuse for all of our crimes against God if we reject the great salvation of Jesus Christ.
- Joined
- 14 Mar 15
- Moves
- 29602
22 Jul 19
@kellyjay saidIf I behave as God behaved in the OT, will I be good?
You have no grasp of God's righteousness and holiness. You also don't see man's wickedness and evil, even as you complain about it all the time. If you did you'd realize His mercy being given right now each day towards us ready. He is putting up with our sins now, unlike you and I in this world we see what touches us and that around us, He experiences every crime with our h ...[text shortened]... ill be no excuse for all of our crimes against God if we reject the great salvation of Jesus Christ.
22 Jul 19
1 edit
@kellyjay saidYes, your version of God is a terrorist who tries to terrify people with threats of eternal torture for not believing in him. If you took honest stock of this ludicrous ideology you would realise that it cannot be true.
The reality of a good and just God should terrify you,
22 Jul 19
1 edit
@proper-knob saidActually it is because God is good do you see things done by God in the OT towards evil men, you even see His grace and mercy when none should be given if all that was seen was justice. Evil and wickedness in the OT were man's, and the result of those deeds brought about judgment.
@KellyJay
How anyone who has read the OT can claim God is 'good' must surely be using a 'non-standard' definition of the word 'good'. I think you need to take those rose tinted glasses off Kelly.
If anything what the OT should tell you is about God giving us mercy when we could be held accountable at once. Mercy is a term a used a lot, it isn't one that is given to anyone due to their righteousness instead it is given to those that do not deserve it. Just like forgiveness, forgiveness isn't a term used by those towards righteous people, righteous people don't need forgiveness, but those that have done wrong need mercy and forgiveness.
The only one who can give forgiveness is the very one wronged, not some third party with no part to play. As I pointed out all crimes and deeds against each of us is one against Him, He is the creator of all of us and we all have done wrong. Our version of good isn't one that can apply to ourselves and to God, for we excuse our bad behavior, we accuse and hold others accountable for many of the things we do ourselves. If there are rose colored tinted glasses it is you own.
22 Jul 19
@divegeester saidNo, you will be cast into the fire for sins, many will be cast in believing in God, the devil believes and he is going in. Many who say Lord, Lord are going to be cast in, if your evil heart has not be given to God so God can redeem you, you'll stand before Him in your sins and when judgment is done for your evil and wicked deeds someone else will throw you into the fire.
Not believing it will cause you to cast yourself into the lake of fire.
22 Jul 19
@divegeester saidHe is a good God who is extending grace and mercy to a sinful world, reject Him if you will.
Yes, your version of God is a terrorist who tries to terrify people with threats of eternal torture for not believing in him. If you took honest stock of this ludicrous ideology you would realise that it cannot be true.
22 Jul 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidYou create the universe, you set the rules?
If I behave as God behaved in the OT, will I be good?
22 Jul 19
1 edit
@kellyjay saidThis is pure rose tinted tosh Kelly. God didn't just kill 'evil men', he even says as much in the OT, here's is one quote of many -
Actually it is because God is good do you see things done by God in the OT towards evil men, you even see His grace and mercy when none should be given if all that was seen was justice. Evil and wickedness in the OT were man's, and the result of those deeds brought about judgment.
Exodus 20:5-6 New International Version (NIV)
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Punishing children for what their parents did is not 'good'. It's evil.
22 Jul 19
1 edit
@kellyjay saidWhen you say "reject him" what you actually mean is 'to not believe the same things you do, to believe something different, to not agree with your personal opinions, to have not settled for the supposed explanations that your religion serves you up with and that satisfy you', right?
He is a good God who is extending grace and mercy to a sinful world, reject Him if you will.