29 Dec 05
Originally posted by Bosse de NageNothing is open, there is nothing to do, and I'm forced to take a holiday at a time of year I don't really care about because I'm not religious. I'd rather have those holidays in the summer time (which is fine here, only a problem in the North Hemisphere!).
And that's what's wrong with Christmas.
That's what's wrong with Christmas.
29 Dec 05
Originally posted by Bosse de NageNZ's got alot better though. Billy Connolly has a joke about when he came here 10 years ago and couldn't get a curry or anything to eat after 8PM. Of course, back in the day you couldn't buy a beer after 6PM!
To be fair, that's more to do with New Zealand than Christmas eh? Everything's open around here--has to be, for the (Xmas) tourists. My chief complaint is that I'm bloody broke.
I'm broke too. Paying off (very expensive) debt in the UK :'(
29 Dec 05
1 edit
Originally posted by telerionFrom Page 2, then. Is that your reasoned post?
Really the xians who whine about people offering other well-wishes than "Merry Christmas" need to get over their tired persecution complex. There are a lot of holidays in these two weeks, and it's just far more effective to cover them all with "Happy Holidays" or something similarly short and inclusive. As Jon said in the clip I'm trying to find, "You c mas and a Happy New Year', but then again you might actually have sh*$ to get done!"
"Persecution complex"- are you attempting to provoke using such language?
"Happy holidays"- there are lots of holidays, it's true. But as I said, you don't get the Winter Solstice Hols off from work in any country I have visited. They are known as the Christmas Holidays in just about every country with a predominantly Christian culture, except for the U.S., perhaps, for whatever reason.
"$hit to get done". So you don't have time to say Happy Christmas because you're too busy? That was a joke? (*tumbleweed rolls slowly across spirituality forum*)
So the point was not- everyone must conform to Christianity, but rather 1) people should not worry about offending people, and 2) the people who get hot and bothered about this are usually secularisers, and are very boring in THEIR quest to rid the world of all that is Christian.
I am not looking for a slagging match- we can discuss this civilly very easily.
As to my 'hypocrisy', I see no conflict in suggesting that the liberal P.C. censorship going on today has its origins in the U.S., but has spread to all the Western world, and asking that local references be explained. I doubt you do either, but if you do, then please explain exactly what you mean.
Ho ho ho on my country and her independence. Are you really that stereotypical? And what do you know about my country, anyway? Do please answer that, or neglect to bring it up.
Ho ho ho on my religion. You never answered my post above that asked you to tell me about my background. Tell me about it now, then.
29 Dec 05
3 edits
Originally posted by sjeg"Persecution complex"- are you attempting to provoke using such language?
From Page 2, then. Is that your reasoned post?
"Happy holidays"- there are lots of holidays, it's true. But as I said, you don't get the Winter Solstice Hols off from work in any country I have visited. They are known as the Christmas Holidays in just about every country with a predominantly Christian culture, except for the U.S., perhaps, for whatever r post above that asked you to tell me about my background. Tell me about it now, then.
Not really, though the word complex betrays my sentiment toward the xians that throw such temper tantrums. I believe the "persecution complex" is the product of two elements:
1) In the beginnings of the xian religion, believers were persecuted. The persecution found its way into their mythology. That xians are unwelcome sojourners in a world that hates them is iterated over and over by Paul for example.
2) the world is always changing. For sometime xianity has enjoyed a great degree of privilege in many western societies. As xians comprised nearly the entire polity, expressions and laws that were consistent with a general xian philosophy dominated government and culture. Overtime however, the xian fraction of the polity (in the US and elsewhere) has decreased. With this has come a growing awareness of other views and perspectives. As these views and perspectives are made more visible in the public square, the very culture begins to change. For many fundamentalist xians (really fundamentalists in general, though here I am writing of xian ones), change is very frightening. Combine this aversion for change with the fact that the changes operate in a direction diametrically opposed to their wishes (the more their religion is recognized the better), and a strong sense of indignation rises. As the changing polity induces changes in culture against their wishes, the xian fundamentalist begins to feel oppressed. They see this as consistent with element (1) above.
Xian privilege eroding due to increased diversity in western culture also explains your point about Christmas being celebrated explicitly in most western countries. It really doesn't matter that Christmas (and New Years) is the dominate celebration during this period. The point is that there are a lot of holidays celebrated by different people in western societies. By saying, "Happy Holidays" or something similarly broad, you can issue well wishes to everyone (except maybe JW's).
As far as a secularist plot to remove Christ from Christmas or Christmas in general, I'll stand by what I've always said here: that's BS. No such plot exists. Xians perceive such a movement for the reasons that I briefly outlined above.
"$hit to get done" was the punchline used by Jon Stewart. I credited him for it. Sorry that I'm just not as funny as him.
So the point was not- everyone must conform to Christianity, but rather 1) people should not worry about offending people, and 2) the people who get hot and bothered about this are usually secularisers, and are very boring in THEIR quest to rid the world of all that is Christian.
1) I think one should not go out of their way to offend people. Saying "Merry Christmas" to everyone in place of something more inclusive may or may not be intentional offense. Businesses and gov'ts choose more inclusive well-wishes because they must be attentive to their changing polity/clientelle. Really I don't care what an individual personally wants to say. I'm just trying to get you to acknowledge that there is no anti-Christmas plot.
2) The vast majority of people who are getting hot and bothered about this issue are evangelical xians, by far. Maybe a few very adamant secularists have a personal issue, but these people are very very few. The image of some mass uprising by faithless people to tear down the Lord Jesus Christ is a fantasy of the fundies. Again I've already sketched out why this occurs.
Your 'hypocrisy' was really more an 'inconsistency.' You asked us all to be more "international" in our posts. I know that you just want us all to remember that many here are not familiar with American cultural conflicts, but the way you said it made it seem that you took offense that some did not recognize your non-American status. The bit about your country's independence was some tongue-in-cheek hyperbole. That does not reflect how I actually think. I was just playing the ugly American.
I don't know your specific xian background. It is clear however that to some degree you are a xian, whether you consider yourself to be a good follower or a backslider. Non-believers don't usually go around using the word "secularist" in the pejorative sense that you do. Correct me if I'm wrong.
01 Jan 06
1 edit
Originally posted by lucifershammerIt's a long one this, I'll try to be brief.
It's not clear to me what point you're making here. Are you saying that 'political correctness' is an excuse used by politicians to maintain political and cultural inequality? Or that the term 'PC' is used by politicians to denigrate the requests of those seeking such equality?
Political correctness emerged justifiably as a response to the growing racial and gender etc tensions reaching a peak in the 1980s. Nobody should dismiss the importance of establishing a language of non-offensive terms when by their very nature words have been known to lead to sinister results.
The problem is, PC speak has been taken far too literally. English members may know of the recent case of a Somerset (I think) museum banning the use of the term BC as it may be offensive to other religious groups.
Having worked closely with social workers and politicians, and university professors of Politics and Sociology, all of whom seem to sweat in a 'non-offensive' way, I cannot avoid the conclusion that many of them use political correctness as a some kind of decoy for their true opinions and beliefs. It's a way of hiding their own prejudice. Discuss immigration and they get on their high horses and accuse everybody of racism, yet they go home to their same-race partners, go to their same-race pubs with their same-race friends and talk about their same-race music, and don't know the first thing about Diwali or Ramadan. But of course they know the right words.
There is a theory that people go into the careers which compensate for childhood lacks. Healers and doctors were sickly children, policemen were often the ringleaders of troublemakers at school, teachers may feel inside that a lot of knowledge was deprived them. So what makes a person rave about the delicate nature of every letter of every word? Could it be there is something they're not telling us?
02 Jan 06
1 edit
Originally posted by telerionThat actually wasn't a bad post. Good turn-around. I'd even rec you myself, if I were a member.
[b]"Persecution complex"- are you attempting to provoke using such language?
Not really, though the word complex betrays my sentiment toward the xians that throw such temper tantrums. I believe the "persecution complex" is the product of two elements:
1) In the beginnings of the xian religion, believers were persecuted. The persecution fou " in the pejorative sense that you do. Correct me if I'm wrong.[/b]
On "persecution complex", I suggest that your language is rather unfortunate, as Christians today are persecuted and killed for their faith from Palestine to Poso.
My theory on this is as follows. L.H. made a valid point above- that so many "rationalists" seemingly have nothing better to do than attack Christianity at every turn. These forums are a good example. Their attacks are not directed against religion itself, but specifically Christianity. You might deny this, but it is evidently the case.
Most of these people who are ardent secularisers are of U.S. origins. It might seem that fundamentalist Christians spawn fundamentalist secularisers, just as the Christian Brothers' schools produce the most convinced atheists. Anyway, all I can say is that I do understand why some of you are so staunch in your beliefs, and I have some sympathy for your predicament.
As to boxing me in, I can say that your conclusion about me is inaccurate. I will argue against fundamentalism in all its forms, as I believe is right and proper. However I will talk about a fundamentalist religious man and a fundamentalist seculariser in the pejorative sense, as to me both are one in the same, and neither should be allowed too much power, as their extremism inevitably clouds their judgement.
I hope that explains my position.