11 Jun 15
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“All [God’s] ways are justice. [He is] a God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice.” (Deuteronomy 32:4) An act of divine justice is not comparable to a human war. Why? Because unlike humans, God is able to read hearts—that is, what humans are on the inside.
For example, when God judged the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and determined to bring them to ruin, the faithful man Abraham was concerned about the justice of the matter. He could not imagine that his just God would “sweep away the righteous with the wicked.” Patiently, God reassured him that if there were even ten righteous people in Sodom, He would spare the city on their account. (Genesis 18:20-33) Clearly, God searched through the hearts of those people and saw the depth of their wickedness.—1 Chronicles 28:9.
Similarly, God judged the Canaanites and rightly ordered their destruction. The Canaanites were notorious for their cruelty, which included burning children alive in sacrificial fires. * (2 Kings 16:3) The Canaanites knew that Jehovah had commanded Israel to take possession of all the land. Those who chose to remain and wage war were taking a deliberate stand against not only the Israelites but also Jehovah, who had given powerful evidence that he was with his people.
Moreover, God extended mercy to Canaanites who abandoned their wickedness and accepted Jehovah’s high moral standards. For example, the Canaanite prostitute Rahab was saved, along with her family. Also, when the inhabitants of the Canaanite city of Gibeon sought mercy, they and all their children were preserved alive.—Joshua 6:25; 9:3, 24-26.
jw.org (peace be upon it)
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhat other historical sources apart from the literature the Hebrews wrote themselves are there that can be used to justify the mass killing?
“All [God’s] ways are justice. [He is] a God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice.” (Deuteronomy 32:4) An act of divine justice is not comparable to a human war. Why? Because unlike humans, God is able to read hearts—that is, what humans are on the inside.
For example, when God judged the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and determined to ...[text shortened]... ught mercy, they and all their children were preserved alive.—Joshua 6:25; 9:3, 24-26.
jw.org
How is stuff like "The Canaanites were notorious for their cruelty, which included burning children alive in sacrificial fires" different from the stories about babies spiked on German bayonets in 1914 used to recruit soldiers to the British Army and to frame the war as a 'just war'?
11 Jun 15
Originally posted by Suziannenowhere in the definition of genocide does it say it must be committed by men. genocide is genocide no matter who does it.
Actual genocide, conceptualized and committed by men? Like the Third Reich was guilty of against the Jews? Of course not. That's not what we're talking about here, though.
11 Jun 15
Originally posted by Suziannewhen god does the exact thing, it's called divine justice, right?
Genocide is only committed by men.
what else?
when you deliberately kill a child, it's called infanticide. what is it called when god deliberately kills a child?
when brothers boink, it's called incest. what is it called what adam and eve's children did at the command of God?
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11 Jun 15
Concerning the children slain at the instruction of God to Saul.
We do not need to consider them as guilty under justice in the same way as the parents.
In the whole story of God doing right by them we are not aware of those details. It is a fact of life that the sins of parents can negative effect their children. And societies should learn that.
It is also "not fair" that the children of a sinful alcoholic should often be made to be wounded for life by that situation.
There is no way to cause everyone to like what was commanded concerning the Amalekites. But in the overall eternal providence of God some of us have confidence in what Abraham challenged God before -
"Shall not the Judge of all the earth do justly?" (Gen. 18:25)
Look, the story is a hard one. It is really difficult.
But I take it along with 66 books of many other instances showing God's wisdom, mercy, and ability to work all things for providentially for His perfect will.
I have to compare the account with many other examples of God's dealings with man.
12 Jun 15
Originally posted by sonship"Concerning the children slain at the instruction of God to Saul.
Concerning the children slain at the instruction of God to Saul.
We do not need to consider them as guilty under justice in the same way as the parents.
In the whole story of God doing right by them we are not aware of those details. It is a fact of life that the sins of parents can negative effect their children. And societies should learn that. ...[text shortened]... ct will.
I have to compare the account with many other examples of God's dealings with man.
We do not need to consider them as guilty under justice in the same way as the parents."
so it's ok to kill them?
" In the whole story of God doing right by them we are not aware of those details. It is a fact of life that the sins of parents can negative effect their children. And societies should learn that. "
yes, the sins of the parents can negatively affect the children who become innocent victims through no fault of their own. so god and saul and joshua killed innocent victims.
" It is also "not fair" that the children of a sinful alcoholic should often be made to be wounded for life by that situation. "
no it is not. that's why we step in to protect them. if the "sinful alooholic" kills a man, we don't make his children suffer the same punishment.
" There is no way to cause everyone to like what was commanded concerning the Amalekites. "
there isn't, i agree. because what was done to them is despicable.
" Look, the story is a hard one. It is really difficult.
But I take it along with 66 books of many other instances showing God's wisdom, mercy, and ability to work all things for providentially for His perfect will. "
you take the instance where he didn't show mercy, wisdom or a plan (other than favor the israelites) along with the instances where he did? why?
"I have to compare the account with many other examples of God's dealings with man."
have to? do you often do that? is hitler less of a monster because he liked dogs?
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Originally posted by Zahlanziso it's ok to kill them?
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Saul should have obeyed the command of God.
And we New Testament age Christians should be absolute in allowing Christ completely fill us.
yes, the sins of the parents can negatively affect the children who become innocent victims through no fault of their own. so god and saul and joshua killed innocent victims.
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One one sense you could say that.
When some people asked Jesus about the miserable deaths of some people, as to what their moral state was Jesus said
Unless we repent we will all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3).
"Now there were some present at the same time who reported to Him concerning the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
And He answered and said to them, Do you think that these Galileans were sinners beyond all the Galileans because they suffered these things?
No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were debtors beyond all the men dwelling in Jerusalem?
No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you shall all similarly perish." (Luke 13:1-5)
You have not yet supplied any denunciation of God Himself from Jesus in the New Testament condemning His Father's actions in the Old Testament.
No one else was so qualified to do so. Yet not one word echoing your "despicable" feelings toward God. Rather He referred to God as "Righteous Father" .
You were not able to demonstrate Jesus Christ condemning the books of Joshua, the conquest of Canaan, or the judgment of the flood, Sodom and Gamorrah, or of the Amalekites as "despicable" actions of God.
So we can take our queue from Jesus Christ they must not have been as despicable acts as you teach.
no it is not. that's why we step in to protect them. if the "sinful alooholic" kills a man, we don't make his children suffer the same punishment.
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I am placing my bets on God being Righteous Father as Jesus said. I admit the passages are difficult. Maybe no human answer will satisfy everyone.
By and large - I take my queue from the Son of God. He has a kind of approvedness which encourages me that as He saw God in the Old Testament, so should I.
I think of the child who has to sit on his father's lap in order to reach the father's face to slap it. I'm pretty sure you have to stand upon the Judeo-Christian influence on world culture in order to be able to reach God's face to slap it.
You have to borrow from a Christian world view of human worth of all people in order to launch your criticism against God's actions in the Old Testament.
i agree. because what was done to them is despicable.
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I am placing my bets on God being perfect.
You haven't shown Christ condemning God of the Old Testament.
I expect that there will be some actions harder to understand than others.
Anyway, like I said, I am thankful for the story. It dramatically indicates that as a New Testament believer I have to be absolute in letting Christ fill my being. I have to let Him totally conquer me and not be rebellious based upon my natural sense of self pity.
"I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me."
As Haman the Agagite plotted to exterminate God's nation, so what I spare of the fallen nature will one day rise up to kill off my living unto God.
you take the instance where he didn't show mercy, wisdom or a plan (other than favor the israelites) along with the instances where he did? why?
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I think He showed wisdom which we limited humans may not yet be able to appreciate. My Bible doesn't end with the story of the Amalekites. By and large the accumulated record of God's dealings with man definitely inspires my trust.
And the highest moral point of the Bible, the life and teaching of Jesus has no instance of Him saying God was evil or wrong in a number of OT stories difficult for us.
You failed to show any recommendation in the New Testament that the Old Testament was worthless.
12 Jun 15
Originally posted by sonship" Saul should have obeyed the command of God"
[b] so it's ok to kill them?
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Saul should have obeyed the command of God.
And we New Testament age Christians should be absolute in allowing Christ completely fill us.
yes, the sins of the parents can negatively affect the children who become innocent victims through no fault of their own. so god and sau ...[text shortened]... You failed to show any recommendation in the New Testament that the Old Testament was worthless.
if god commands you to kill innocents, you will?
" You were not able to demonstrate Jesus Christ condemning the books of Joshua, the conquest of Canaan, or the judgment of the flood, Sodom and Gamorrah, or of the Amalekites as "despicable" actions of God. "
nooooo, whenever he talks about how everyone deserves to be saved, and we should love everyone as we love ourselves, that's him saying how awesome it was that those children had to die in the flood or in jericho. good thing they saved that traitorous whore in jericho, she was the only innocent person there.
" I am placing my bets on God being Righteous Father as Jesus said. I admit the passages are difficult. Maybe no human answer will satisfy everyone."
you are not. you are simply blindly trusting a vicious text written by some man who claims it was the will of god.
" I think He showed wisdom which we limited humans may not yet be able to appreciate. My Bible doesn't end with the story of the Amalekites. "
nope, it doesn't. it continues with the story of the most pious and righteous man in the world whom god tortured to see how long it would take to brake him. the bible doesn't tell the story of servant nr 12, who isn't even named except to mention how he was killed while tending to the flock of job, just so god could send another misfortune on the head of his most faithful servant.
it continues with the story of the children who made fun of prophet whatshisface and were promptly eaten by bears.
CHILDREN WERE FREAKIN EATEN BY BEARS FOR MAKING FUN OF SOMEONE.
is this still righteous? is it divine justice? does god have a plan that needs children to be eaten by bears? are you freakin kidding me?
" You failed to show any recommendation in the New Testament that the Old Testament was worthless.["
children were murdered. again and again. that's enough.
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Originally posted by Zahlanziif god commands you to kill innocents, you will?
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I don't trust in myself that I would be able to carry out ANY command of God. As a new covenant believer I am taught to touch Christ within, abide in Him, and allow Christ to live HIS absolute obedience to the Father.
The New Testament to me is not about asking God to help me be good. It is realizing Christ lives in me and abiding in the realm of His indwelling presence.
I don't trust in myself that I would be able to kill even guilty grown ups. My trust is that only Jesus is absolute for the will of the Father. My life is to contact Him, abide in Him, linger in His influence as the indwelling Holy Spirit.
nooooo, whenever he talks about how everyone deserves to be saved,
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I think that is God desires all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth. Everyone deserves to hear the Gospel.
and we should love everyone as we love ourselves, that's him saying how awesome it was that those children had to die in the flood or in jericho.
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I don't know about children in the flood of Noah or at Jericho.
Do you know specifically that there were children in either of those accounts?
In the case of Jericho, God had the army march around the city one day, a second day, a third day, a fourth day, a fifth day, a sixth day, and seven times around on the seventh day.
The impression I get is that God was giving the repentant a chance to evacuate. On each of those days I think God was providing the repentant to get out of the impending doom.
good thing they saved that traitorous whore in jericho, she was the only innocent person there.
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The Bible doesn't depict Rahab as a "traiterous whore" but as a believing one. She was saved by her faith. This was a window into God's salvation by grace through faith.
you are simply blindly trusting a vicious text written by some man who claims it was the will of god.
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I am definitely trusting. But it is a trust with a great deal of of confirmation that I am on the right track. It is a trust fortified with many testimonies of God's well dealing with us, albeit some few more difficult instances to grasp.
One thing I am not doing. I am not asking God to help be be a good person as if I was already good but just needed a little extra help from Jesus.
No I am daily and even hourly abiding in Him as He taught -
"Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
I am the vine; you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing." (John 15:4,5)
I have learned that the normal Christian life is to have Christ live His life from within me in an "organic" joining of me in Him.
I have graduated from an attitude: "Lord I am a good person. I just need a little help to be more good."
it continues with the story of the most pious and righteous man in the world whom god tortured to see how long it would take to brake him. the bible doesn't tell the story of servant nr 12, who isn't even named except to mention how he was killed while tending to the flock of job, just so god could send another misfortune on the head of his most faithful servant.
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So now we jump from the Amalekites to the book of Job ?
I don't know about you, but I don't in Job amunition to accuse God as being less moral than myself either.
You said you were a Christian. You said so. Maybe if you are a new one you might spend more right now in books like Luke.
I don't usually recommend young believers tackle Job or Jashua as the "milk" of the word of God.
You know Paul said that there was the milk and the more solid meat of spiritual teaching to assimilate. It is no shame at all to just place some portions of the Bible aside while you digest other portions easier to derive nourishment from.
The other thing I practice is to take my problems in His word to God Himself in prayer with honesty yet reverance. Rather than find Christians to club over the head with blame, I like to take my problems with something in His word to the Source.
Yet I come into His presence first with thanksgiving and praise. But I have had some very good heart to heart discussions with God about things I didn't like in the Bible.
I recommend that you reverently open up and pour out your problems with God in private more. Find a good isolated field where you can lift up your voice without drawing attention. Pour out your heart to God.
The Psalmists did many times.
Take your problem about the Amalekites or Job to God in complaint, yet accompanied with praise and thanksgiving. He honors honest prayer. That has been my experience.
it continues with the story of the children who made fun of prophet whatshisface and were promptly eaten by bears.
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You're alluding to the story of Elisha being mocked after the prophet Elijah was taken up by God. That's in Second Kings 2. Specially the disrespectful mocking of the young people from the town hostile to God, is in verses 23-25.
I don't take that as Elisha's personal annoyance for being called "baldhead." He was the successor to Elijah the prophet. And I think respect for the office of the prophethood was at stake rather than Elisha's personal feelings.
But that could be another discussion.
is this still righteous? is it divine justice? does god have a plan that needs children to be eaten by bears? are you freakin kidding me?
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They were punished by bears - 42 of them. Probably has some symbolic significance also with the number 42. Maybe 42 generations was the typology. I'd have to review it.
children were murdered. again and again. that's enough.
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Have you spent at least an equal amount of time to consider God's CARE for children throughout the Bible? Seriously, just an equal amount of time, to search out God's preservation of children?
I am a Christian. I have to take a "holistic" or well rounded and fully encompassing view of the word of God.
12 Jun 15
Originally posted by sonship"Have you spent at least an equal amount of time to consider God's CARE for children throughout the Bible?"
[b] if god commands you to kill innocents, you will?
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I don't trust in myself that I would be able to carry out ANY command of God. As a new covenant believer I am taught to touch Christ within, abide in Him, and allow Christ to live HIS absolute obedience to the Father.
The N ...[text shortened]... ] have [/i] to take a "holistic" or well rounded and fully encompassing view of the word of God.[/b]
so if you care for one child, you are permitted to kill another child as long as it balances out?
do you spent some time reviewing your posts before hitting the post button? or maybe get someone to read it out loud to you. maybe you need to hear it to get how utterly psychotic you sound.
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Originally posted by Zahlanzi
"Have you spent at least an equal amount of time to consider God's CARE for children throughout the Bible?"
so if you care for one child, you are permitted to kill another child as long as it balances out?
I simply asked if you spent some time to get a whole rounded picture. I did not say that would remove all difficult passages from the Bible.
do you spent some time reviewing your posts before hitting the post button? or maybe get someone to read it out loud to you. maybe you need to hear it to get how utterly psychotic you sound.
That's interesting. You sound somewhat psychotic to me, thinking only what YOU approve of should be written in the Bible.
I am more impressed with Jesus of Nazareth than with you.
And as you have failed to demonstrate His denunciation of some difficult occurrences of divine action in the Old Testament, I think I'll await further spiritual growth for more insight.
Is there something about your life on earth which would cause us to imagine Christ needs to sit at your feet and learn something from you about better ethics ?
13 Jun 15
Originally posted by sonship"That's interesting. You sound somewhat psychotic to me, thinking only what YOU approve of should be written in the Bible. ""Have you spent at least an equal amount of time to consider God's CARE for children throughout the Bible?"
so if you care for one child, you are permitted to kill another child as long as it balances out?
I simply asked if you spent some time to get a whole rounded picture. I did not say that would remove all difficult passages from th ...[text shortened]... s to imagine Christ needs to sit at your feet and learn something from you about better ethics ?
yes, "genocide is bad" is a personal opinion of mine. nobody else thought of that. i feel so special.
" And as you have failed to demonstrate His denunciation of"
does the phrase "love thy enemy" in any way suggests that we should murder those that don't worship the same god as we do?
" Is there something about your life on earth which would cause us to imagine Christ needs to sit at your feet and learn something from you about better ethics "
is "murdering children is wrong" such a difficult concept for you to grasp? and yes, if jesus indeed supported (he didn't) the genocides committed by god (He did not), MY ethics would be better. because they (the murder god and his son you speak of) wouldn't have any ethics at all.
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Originally posted by Zahlanzi
is "murdering children is wrong" such a difficult concept for you to grasp? and yes, if jesus indeed supported (he didn't) the genocides committed by god (He did not), MY ethics would be better. because they (the murder god and his son you speak of) wouldn't have any ethics at all.
Now we are circling around again to what I wrote before.
I took my child to the pediatrician and the learned doctor stuck a stick in her mouth and told her to say "Ahhhh". Latter I saw her playing with her younger baby brother, sticking a stick in his mouth. I sternly warned her not to do that.
What was appropriate for the adult medical doctor with his knowledge, training and skill was not appropriate for the child to imitate. Though the outward action was very much the same, the intent and backround knowledge, was not.
It is not always the same thing if man does something which outwardly appears the same as what God did.
God caused a married woman to have a child, the virgin Mary.
No, it is not exactly equivalent if I find a married woman and cause her to have a child by me.
Go around in circles with you, I don't think I'll do.