15 Dec 10
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobiePerhaps having optimistic delusions really does help some people to survive and overcome adversity; but only for those that really cannot mentally handle harsh reality without escaping into such a fantasy land.
what about those persons whose religious convictions really help them? which gives them a sense of self and purpose, that has helped them overcome all manner of unforeseen or unfavourable circumstances and in some cases trauma? what shall you say to them? get a life? you may of course disagree with the details, but everyone needs to fill their liv ...[text shortened]... ication of religious principles doesn't make you happy, why should it mean the same for others?
But why should the rest of us have to delude ourselves just because the less strong minded cannot cope with reality?
I choose to NOT delude myself about reality no matter HOW harsh and brutal that reality is for me (and others ) ; how could you (or would you ? )criticise me for making this choice?
I do not choose that harsh reality, that reality is just whatever it is and I either accept it or delude myself into thinking it is something better than what it is.
“...what is the alternative, an impotent atheistic god, ...”
what “atheistic god”?
“...shall we do obeisance to science? ...”
why must we do “obeisance” to something?
“...the panacea for all? ...”
nobody claims this of science.
“....why should we limit ourselves to materialism and mindless matter ...”
Which meaning of “materialism” are you referring to?
Is it the theory that having worldly possessions constitute the greatest good and highest value in life?
If so, this has nothing to do with atheism. Atheism is simply the disbelief that there is a god. Many atheists including myself are NOT “materialistic” in that sense of the word; I do NOT believe nor have the attitude that having worldly possessions constitute the highest value in my life nor anyone else's.
But if what you mean by “materialism” is that everything, including thought, feeling, mind, and will, can be explained in terms of physical phenomena (IS this what you mean? ) then, to answer your question on “....why should we limit ourselves to materialism and mindless matter ...” ;
Firstly; assuming the supernatural doesn’t exist (a reasonable assumption that is based on the same reasoning that makes us assume that the tooth fairy etc doesn't exist), then the reason why we “should” limit ourselves to materialism (in this second sense of the word “ materialism“ ) is because we have no choice; if all there exists is mind and matter then that's all there is and, if you don't like that, then, well, that is just tough.
Secondly, atheists don't generally believe that all matter is “mindless”! I mean, I would not say that the human brain is “mindless”! I do not deny the existence of my mind because I have self-awareness that makes the existence of my mind an empirical fact.
“...will it make us happier more fulfilled individuals? ...”
Are you implying here that we should judge the truth or falsity of a hypothesis not on reason nor on the evidence but rather how much more happier and “fulfilled” it makes us?
“...if the adherence to and application of religious principles doesn't make you happy, why should it mean the same for others? ...”
nobody is denying that religious belief makes some people happier; but is religious belief correct? This is a totally different question.
16 Dec 10
Originally posted by galveston75Another scripture that is overlooked about this work is in Rev 12: 13-17.
Yes you have to do both. Very simple to undeerstand it would seem but missed by most.
Revelation 12:13-17 (New Living Translation)
13 "When the dragon realized that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
14 But she was given two wings like those of a great eagle so she could fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness. There she would be cared for and protected from the dragon[a] for a time, times, and half a time.
15 Then the dragon tried to drown the woman with a flood of water that flowed from his mouth.
16 But the earth helped her by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that gushed out from the mouth of the dragon.
17 And the dragon was angry at the woman and declared war against the rest of her children—all who keep God’s commandments and maintain their testimony for Jesus."
These scriptures were pointing to a future time and to future events when this was written.
Notice verse 17 where it mentions that these children or his followers would "maintain their testomony for Jesus". Whay does this mean? What is this testimony? What did Jesus testify about in his preaching work? What did he tell his followers to do? What would they still be doing when these other events with Satan were happening?
16 Dec 10
5 edits
Originally posted by Andrew Hamiltonagain , a rather unfortunate display of the utter folly of the materialist, tell me Mr Hamilton what is delusional about self sacrifice? what is delusional about wanting to be a more loving, kind and tolerant individual? is it not agreed that humans need to feel appreciated and loved, in fact, that we thrive on affection like a plant feeds upon the radiant rays of the sun? why should we view that in terms of delusion? If a persons religious convictions make them more so, then that is not a delusion, it is a reality which you cannot deny and you are the one deluding yourself that it can be explained away in terms of electro-chemical impulses in the mind! Indeed, i would like t know, how knowing how the body works on any type of level makes us more loving, more tolerant? If you cannot answer then you must admit that your materialism is truly impotent.
Perhaps having optimistic delusions really does help some people to survive and overcome adversity; but only for those that really cannot mentally handle harsh reality without escaping into such a fantasy land.
But why should the rest of us have to delude ourselves just because the less strong minded cannot cope with reality?
I choose to NOT ome people happier; but is religious belief correct? This is a totally different question.
16 Dec 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobie"what is delusional about self sacrifice?"
again , a rather unfortunate display of the utter folly of the materialist, tell me Mr Hamilton what is delusional about self sacrifice? what is delusional about wanting to be a more loving, kind and tolerant individual? is it not agreed that humans need to feel appreciated and loved, in fact, that we thrive on affection like a plant feeds upon th ...[text shortened]... ore tolerant? If you cannot answer then you must admit that your materialism is truly impotent.
The same question was once posed by a suicide bomber. Before his act.
16 Dec 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasbig time FAIL, self sacrifice is putting others ahead of oneself, you may like to retract your rather, well, unfortunate statement in reflection of such.
"what is delusional about self sacrifice?"
The same question was once posed by a suicide bomber. Before his act.
16 Dec 10
Originally posted by menace71i watched a car advert while in the gym the other day, it was for a vauxhall astra, the advertisement was telling me just how good id feel, if i owned a vauxhall astra, i could not help but think, why? when i jumped into the car would i be transformed, perhaps into a super hero, batman, or spiderman? would i think to myself, wow, i drive a vauxhall astra i am da man? even in the event that it did pander to my ego, would it change the person i was inside for the better, make me a better human being? i doubt it, yet there it was, telling me what a great guy i could become if i only drove a vauxhall astra. On further reflection, it dawned on me, that this was perhaps a reflection of the world in which we find ourselves, its not who you are as a person that matters, but what you drive, not what kind of human being you are, but how many rooms your house has, not what you do in life that makes you happy, but how much cash you have amassed that will make you happy, and like the vauxhall astra, it appeared to me to be illusionary.
Materialism really is the vanity of vanities
Manny
16 Dec 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI agree, his statement are totally wrong. If you sacrifice yourself, than you don't care much about those who love you.
big time FAIL, self sacrifice is putting others ahead of oneself, you may like to retract your rather, well, unfortunate statement in reflection of such.
"The best father is a living father" - words from a child.
16 Dec 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasi think the main aim of a suicide bomber is not to help others, but to deprive them of life.
I agree, his statement are totally wrong. If you sacrifice yourself, than you don't care much about those who love you.
"The best father is a living father" - words from a child.
16 Dec 10
3 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobie“....again , a rather unfortunate display of the utter folly of the materialist, ...”
again , a rather unfortunate display of the utter folly of the materialist, tell me Mr Hamilton what is delusional about self sacrifice? what is delusional about wanting to be a more loving, kind and tolerant individual? is it not agreed that humans need to feel appreciated and loved, in fact, that we thrive on affection like a plant feeds upon th ...[text shortened]... ore tolerant? If you cannot answer then you must admit that your materialism is truly impotent.
again, I must ask you, which of the two meanings of “materialist” are you referring to?
http://www.dictionary30.com/meaning/Materialist
If you are referring to the first meaning then this has nothing to do with atheism and I am NOT a 'materialist' in that sense of the word. I do NOT believe that what matters is worldly possession.
“...tell me Mr Hamilton what is delusional about self sacrifice? what is delusional about wanting to be a more loving, kind and tolerant individual? is it not agreed that humans need to feel appreciated and loved, ...”
what does this have to do with anything I said in my post?
I OBVIOUSLY didn't say nor imply in any way that 'love', 'tolerance' etc is delusional. 'love' and 'tolerance' are not 'beliefs' but rather are emotions and forms of behaviour. How can it make any sense to say that a non-belief can be “delusional”? Answer, it doesn't. Love and tolerance is NOT in any way in conflict ( neither logical conflict nor emotional conflict ) with my nor any other atheist's disbelief that there exists a god.
“....it is a reality which you cannot deny ...”
...and didn't deny.
“....and you are the one deluding yourself that it can be explained away in terms of electro-chemical impulses in the mind! ...”
do you simply dismiss the many independent observations made by thousands of neuroscientists that have researched and know a lot more about it than you and I?
“...Indeed, i would like t know, how knowing how the body works on any type of level makes us more loving, more tolerant? ...”
did I say this? Answer, no. Do I believe this? Answer, no.
“...then you must admit that your materialism is truly impotent. ...”
again, which of the two meanings of “materialism” are you referring to?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism
17 Dec 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThanks for clarifying that 🙂
a materialist is someone who believes that there is no reality other than that which is material.
How and why do you think that being a materialist (in that sense of the word) would be in conflict with having/promoting love, tolerance etc?
Or don't you think this? (you seem to imply that you think this in your other post)