Where are we now?

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
Thanks for clarifying that 🙂

How and why do you think that being a materialist (in that sense of the word) would be in conflict with having/promoting love, tolerance etc?
Or don't you think this? (you seem to imply that you think this in your other post)

No, i do not think that materialists are more or less loving, my concern is, that a purely materialistic outlook, is impotent in changing someone from lacking virtue, into someone who is virtuous, because it itself is unconcerned with spirituality.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
No, i do not think that materialists are more or less loving, my concern is, that a purely materialistic outlook, is impotent in changing someone from lacking virtue, into someone who is virtuous, because it itself is unconcerned with spirituality.

I might be misunderstanding you here:

When you say “virtue”, are you referring to “moral virtue” ? -if not, what do you mean by “virtue” in this context?

When you say “unconcerned with spirituality”, do you mean “unconcerned with the supernatural”? -if not, what do you mean by “spirituality” in this context?

If (and only if) your answer is “yes” to both the above questions, then I take it you are saying it is morally virtues to believe that there exists a supernatural?
If (and only if) so, then I must ask;

What is the premise of your belief that it is “morally virtues” to believe that there exists a supernatural? I mean, WHY is such a belief “morally virtues”?
And would you think it would STILL be “morally virtues” to believe that there exists a supernatural even if there is NO supernatural? And, if so, why?

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
I might be misunderstanding you here:

When you say “virtue”, are you referring to “moral virtue” ? -if not, what do you mean by “virtue” in this context?

When you say “unconcerned with spirituality”, do you mean “unconcerned with the supernatural”? -if not, what do you mean by “spirituality” in this context?

If (and only if) your answer is “ ...[text shortened]... ” to believe that there exists a supernatural even if there is NO supernatural? And, if so, why?

virtue in the respect of doing something valuable and purposeful, as in bringing two enemies together, as in turning one away from vice, as in turning one away from addiction, as in helping one overcome adverse circumstances.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
virtue in the respect of doing something valuable and purposeful, as in bringing two enemies together, as in turning one away from vice, as in turning one away from addiction, as in helping one overcome adverse circumstances.

How does “a purely materialistic outlook” hinder/stop/deter anyone from “doing something valuable and purposeful, as in bringing two enemies together, as in turning one away from vice, as in turning one away from addiction, as in helping one overcome one environment”?

And how does believing that there exists a supernatural (if that is what you meant by “ spirituality”; but did you mean that? And, if not, then what? ) help make anyone “doing something valuable and purposeful, as in bringing two enemies together, as in turning one away from vice, as in turning one away from addiction, as in helping one overcome one environment”?

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
How does “a purely materialistic outlook” hinder/stop/deter anyone from “doing something valuable and purposeful, as in bringing two enemies together, as in turning one away from vice, as in turning one away from addiction, as in helping one overcome one environment”?

And how does believing that there exists a supernatural (if that is what you mea ...[text shortened]... y from vice, as in turning one away from addiction, as in helping one overcome one environment”?

It cannot do so because it is non spiritual, in that it does not effect the motivations, desires, attitudes of the person so that it may change patterns of behaviour or lead to a more purposeful life, indeed, i would like to know how it can help anyone over come any of these things, have you any examples of it in practice, for there are literally thousands of examples of a religious conviction helping persons to do so.

Take for example alcoholism, for i have met not a few reformed alcoholics who are taught that in order to overcome their addiction, it was helpful to appeal to a higher source, it need not be God but can be anything of their choosing, but the point proves that persons are helped when doing so.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
It cannot do so because it is non spiritual, in that it does not effect the motivations, desires, attitudes of the person so that it may change patterns of behaviour or lead to a more purposeful life, indeed, i would like to know how it can help anyone over come any of these things, have you any examples of it in practice, for there are literally tho ...[text shortened]... t can be anything of their choosing, but the point proves that persons are helped when doing so.

“....I cannot do so because it in non spiritual, in that it does not effect the motivations, desires, attitudes of the person so that it may change patterns of behaviour or lead to a more purposeful life, indeed, i would like to know how it can help anyone over come any of these things, have you any examples of it in practice, ...”

Why cannot simple applied logic and common sense “effect the motivations, desires, attitudes of the person so that it may change patterns of behaviour or lead to a more purposeful life” ? We can choose our own purpose in life. We can also get psychiatric help/advice for behavioural or motivational or emotional problems and all without involving the belief that there exists a supernatural.

“... have you any examples of it in practice, ...”

I cannot think of any examples off-hand of simple applied logic/common sense/ psychiatric help doing this but surely you wouldn't deny that this can happen?

“..Take for example alcoholism, for i have met not a few reformed alcoholics who are taught that in order to overcome their addiction, it was helpful to appeal to a higher source, it need not be God but can be anything of their choosing, ...”

when you say “ appeal to a higher source” in the above, does that exclude logic/reason/common sense ? Is there any reason why it would help if that “higher source” involves a supernatural thing?

“...but the point proves that persons are helped when doing so. ...”

is there any reason why it is impossible for them to be helped in the absence of promotion of any superstition?

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
“....I cannot do so because it in non spiritual, in that it does not effect the motivations, desires, attitudes of the person so that it may change patterns of behaviour or lead to a more purposeful life, indeed, i would like to know how it can help anyone over come any of these things, have you any examples of it in practice, ...”

Why cannot simp son why it is impossible for them to be helped in the absence of promotion of any superstition?

Mr Hamilton i am perfectly aware of what i said, you don't need to repeat it, as you have provided no evidence that a materialistic point of view can, nor does help persons overcome problems nor lead to a more purposeful and happy condition i have no alternative but to dismiss it outright as being impotent. The mere fact that many have been helped through a belief in the supernatural is evidence in itself, of its potency.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Mr Hamilton i am perfectly aware of what i said, you don't need to repeat it, as you have provided no evidence that a materialistic point of view can, nor does help persons overcome problems nor lead to a more purposeful and happy condition i have no alternative but to dismiss it outright as being impotent. The mere fact that many have been helped through a belief in the supernatural is evidence in itself, of its potency.

“...The mere fact that many have been helped through a belief in the supernatural is evidence in itself, of its potency. ...”

OK, suppose you are right. Suppose you and others have in some emotional way been “helped” by a belief in the supernatural that would not be possible (for some people) without such a belief (a possibility that I do not dismiss).
But now, to see this from my perspective for just a moment, lets further suppose that (hypothetically) there is NO supernatural (which is what I believe).
That would mean that you and others have been emotionally “helped” by a delusional belief.
I don't know about you but I personally think that it is intrinsically harmful to have a delusional belief EVEN if there is an emotional benefit to it.
Would you disagree?

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
“...The mere fact that many have been helped through a belief in the supernatural is evidence in itself, of its potency. ...”

OK, suppose you are right. Suppose you and others have in some emotional way been “helped” by a belief in the supernatural that would not be possible (for some people) without such a belief (a possibility that I do not dism to have a delusional belief EVEN if there is an emotional benefit to it.
Would you disagree?

Wisdom is proven righteous by its works Mr Hamilton. 🙂

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Wisdom is proven righteous by its works Mr Hamilton. 🙂

How would you logically justify that assertion?

Actually, much more to the point, this doesn't answer my question now does it!
Suppose that “wisdom” included some false beliefs. Would you think like I do that it is intrinsically bad to have a false belief EVEN if there is an emotional benefit to having it?

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
How would you logically justify that assertion?

Actually, much more to the point, this doesn't answer my question now does it!
Suppose that “wisdom” included some false beliefs. Would you think like I do that it is intrinsically bad to have a false belief EVEN if there is an emotional benefit to having it?

how can wisdom, defined as the application of knowledge, which has been proven to be the correct course of action (righteous), be considered to contain a falsehood (your assertion), for the mere fact that it has proven itself to be correct is justification enough for regarding its validity. The statement therefore stands.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
how can wisdom, defined as the application of knowledge, which has been proven to be the correct course of action (righteous), be considered to contain a falsehood (your assertion), for the mere fact that it has proven itself to be correct is justification enough for regarding its validity. The statement therefore stands.

“...how can wisdom, defined as the APPLICATION of knowledge, ...” (my emphasis)

What? Where did you get that from?
Is the application of skin moisturisers to stop your skin cracking an “application of knowledge” and, if so, would that mean that, according to your above definition, the physical action of rubbing in moisturisers is, literally, “wisdom”?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/wisdom

1. The ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting; insight.
2. Common sense; good judgment: "It is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things" (Henry David Thoreau).
3.
a. The sum of learning through the ages; knowledge: "In those homely sayings was couched the collective wisdom of generations" (Maya Angelou).
b. Wise teachings of the ancient sages.
4. A wise outlook, plan, or course of action.

As far as I can tell, none of the above fits your definition.
You obviously mean something different from “wisdom” from what I and most other people mean.


“...which has been proven to be the correct course of action (righteous) ...”

what? Again, I don't think most people would agree with that assertion of what you mean by “wisdom”.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
“...how can wisdom, defined as the APPLICATION of knowledge, ...” (my emphasis)

What? Where did you get that from?
Is the application of skin moisturisers to stop your skin cracking an “application of knowledge” and, if so, would that mean that, according to your above definition, the physical action of rubbing in moisturisers is, literally, “wi in, I don't think most people would agree with that assertion of what you mean by “wisdom”.

who cares whether they agree or not, its my definition, that it is different from others hardly invalidates it, and yes, if you have a skin condition, it would be wise to apply appropriate medication. In the same manner, to wear appropriate clothing for mountain climbing, respecting the mountain and getting weather indications, taking appropriate equipment would also be the wise course of action, or are you saying that it is not? Thus wisdom is defined as the application of knowledge.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
who cares whether they agree or not, its my definition, that it is different from others hardly invalidates it, and yes, if you have a skin condition, it would be wise to apply appropriate medication. In the same manner, to wear appropriate clothing for mountain climbing, respecting the mountain and getting weather indications, taking appropriate equ ...[text shortened]... tion, or are you saying that it is not? Thus wisdom is defined as the application of knowledge.

“...and yes, if you have a skin condition, it would be wise to apply appropriate medication. ...”
“...In the same manner, to wear appropriate clothing for mountain climbing, respecting the mountain and getting weather indications, taking appropriate equipment would also be the wise course of action, ...”

yes to both. Yes it is “wise” to decide do that, but I just want to clarify what you are saying:

Is the physical ACT (and not necessary the decision made based on knowledge) of doing it (whether that act is done consciously or mindlessly) literally what you would call “wisdom”?

Suppose that I believe I am to go to a hot arid desert. I then, strangely, proper to go to that hot place by bringing ice-picks and skies because I strangely think that is appropriate (using some twisted logic) . So, using the knowledge that “I am going to a hot desert” I APPLY the knowledge by, rather eccentrically, taking ice-picks and skies with me (thus conforming to your definition of wisdom). So is that an example of “wisdom”?

But suppose that it just so happens that although I am going to a hot desert, unknown to me, I would only stay there for a minute and then I am due to go up a very tall snowy mountain that is surrounded by that desert so bringing ice-picks and skies would have been the wise thing to do if only I known that I was going to such a cold place. Would you call my action of me bringing the ice-picks and skies as “wisdom” because of this?

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
“...and yes, if you have a skin condition, it would be wise to apply appropriate medication. ...”
“...In the same manner, to wear appropriate clothing for mountain climbing, respecting the mountain and getting weather indications, taking appropriate equipment would also be the wise course of action, ...”

yes to both. Yes it is “wise” to decide d ...[text shortened]... ce. Would you call my action of me bringing the ice-picks and skies as “wisdom” because of this?

no its not an example of wisdom, for why would you take ice picks to a desert, indeed, through the application of knowledge, you would discern that it was indeed, unwise to take an ice pick to a desert, for there is no ice, its extra weight could weigh you down, it would serve no practical purpose, indeed, much better would be to take adequate water, adequate clothing, get a local guide, plan your route etc etc , that would be the course of wisdom, and when you completed your sojourn successfully, you could then say to yourself, yes, it was the course of wisdom to take those necessary precautions.

It is the application of knowledge Mr Hamilton, it involves both physical application and cerebral application, it requires both conscious thought and perhaps even a mode of reflection, for what is discernment but the act of weighing up in our minds certain contingencies and applying what we know to find solutions?