Who's game?

Originally posted by chappy1
I don't understand.
Isn't having faith in something by definition a declaration of you thinking it's right? If I didn't think it was right I wouldn't have faith in it.

So you think you are right? Do you concede you might be wrong? What evidences could prove to you that there is no god?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
So you think you are right? Do you concede you might be wrong? What evidences could prove to you that there is no god?

I do think I'm right otherwise I wouldn't have faith. Um, as far as conceding that I might be wrong, do you mean like I should have faith in another religion all together or not have faith in any religion at all? I personally don't think there is anything you could tell me or show me that would convince me that there is no God. You can try if you want but it won't work.

Originally posted by Rajk999
What I find to be a more interesting question is why do atheists feel the need to 'convert' theists and vice versa. Is it a complex of some kind?

Christians feel the need to try and convert because we are commanded to. I have no idea why atheists feel the need to convert. No idea at all.

Originally posted by chappy1
I do think I'm right otherwise I wouldn't have faith. Um, as far as conceding that I might be wrong, do you mean like I should have faith in another religion all together or not have faith in any religion at all? I personally don't think there is anything you could tell me or show me that would convince me that there is no God. You can try if you want but it won't work.

So, you do not concede the possibility that God might not exist? You are claiming that it is a truth in which you are 100% certain with no wriggle room?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
So, you do not concede the possibility that God might not exist? You are claiming that it is a truth in which you are 100% certain with no wriggle room?

Yes that's correct. The reason I believe that's correct is because I have faith. To have faith means you believe it 100%. To have faith is to believe in something that is unseen. This defines me. This drives me. This is me. ...............And here comes the criticism.

Originally posted by chappy1
Yes that's correct. ............And here comes the criticism!

No criticism, merely a question.

If God came to you in a dream or similar, and commanded you to commit suicide, or kill a family member, or blow yourself up in the middle of a crowded shopping mall, would you?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
No criticism, merely a question.

If God came to you in a dream or similar, and commanded you to commit suicide, or kill a family member, or blow yourself up in the middle of a crowded shopping mall, would you?

No I absolutely would not because it would be contradictory to his Word in the Bible. Anything that is contradictory to his Word does not come from God.

Originally posted by chappy1
No I absolutely would not because it would be contradictory to his Word in the Bible. Anything that is contradictory to his Word does not come from God.

So, would it be fair to say you have faith in the Bible, as well as God?

Originally posted by TheSkipper
So, would it be fair to say you have faith in the Bible, as well as God?

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1

Originally posted by chappy1
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1

I see. So, how do you determine what the Bible is? There were many religious themed books written during antiquity, some of them about Jesus' life that do not find their way into the modern Bible. Do you simply assume the Council of Trent got it right, or have you read all the other books as well and decided for yourself what qualifies as "The Word"?

Originally posted by TheSkipper
I see. So, how do you determine what the Bible is? There were many religious themed books written during antiquity, some of them about Jesus' life that do not find their way into the modern Bible. Do you simply assume the Council of Trent got it right, or have you read all the other books as well and decided for yourself what qualifies as "The Word"?

The ones cannonized were considered the most accurate. They were written within 50 years after Jesus's death.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
So, you do not concede the possibility that God might not exist? You are claiming that it is a truth in which you are 100% certain with no wriggle room?

You know, Scotty, I have to admit the possibility that what I call the supernatural category might represent a real domain. Nevertheless, it remains for me an unnecessary metaphysical leap.

The power of the mind—either of itself or in response to environmental stimulus—seems eminently capable of projecting an illusive sensory experience (with or without strong emotional content) in such a way that it seems to represent an external reality. For a mundane example: Is that an oasis over there or a mirage? Neither the force of the experience nor its specific content is decisive. Just because it really, really seems to be an oasis (and I happen to be lost in the desert) doesn’t make it so.

The same for mystical experiences, and the records and conclusions of those who have had them in the past, and who recorded the same. After all, such experiences are not consistent in content across religions (theistic or non-theistic), nor are the various conclusions drawn from them (Judaism versus Christianity versus Islam versus Hinduism versus Buddhism, etc.).

Therefore, interpretations of such events and records in terms of the supernatural are just that: interpretations. Once one makes the leap to a supernatural interpretation, one’s theology may or may not be, in itself, internally consistent. Nevertheless, it is a leap; and the theology drawn therefrom depends upon it axiomatically. It is an axiom of theological discourse. And I think that needs to be straightforwardly admitted. Some theists are quite willing to, others may not be.

I have no problem with the idea that the “syntax of the cosmos” may not all be accessible to the “grammar of our consciousness”—there may always remain mystery (especially when one considers that that grammar is itself part of, and inseparable from, the larger syntax). Also, the simple non-conceptual state of being aware (perceptually) before adding any conceptual content to the experience is properly ineffable—we can only communicate, or even think about it, in terms of concepts; and that comes after, or else muddles the clarity of the experience itself.* Those concepts may or may not accurately reflect the underlying reality; they are not it. In Zen terminology, what we say about non-conceptual reality are “fingers pointing to the moon”; one should not confuse the conceptual content of the gesture with what is being pointed to.

Again, I see no reason to make the leap from the non-conceptual experience of what I call tathata—the just-so-suchness, of which I also inseparably am—to the supernatural concept/category. Parsimony is one reason; willingness to let the ineffable remain ineffable is another (and anything that I say about it should also be taken as “fingers pointing to the moon”, nothing more).

I really can’t say what I would judge to be sufficient justifying evidence for the supernatural category. I haven’t come across it yet. It would certainly be interesting, and I have no reason to be closed to it.

___________________________________________

* As a karate-ka, I suspect that you have some idea of what I’m talking about, whether you do any kind of meditation or not.

Originally posted by chappy1
No I absolutely would not because it would be contradictory to his Word in the Bible. Anything that is contradictory to his Word does not come from God.

But wait. Theists often batter out the line that God need not be logical. God CAN contradict himself, since he has no need to be logical.

Furthermore, the God of the bible was hugely murderous. He killed the firstborn, he destroyed cities, men, women, children, babies. Heck, he drowned the entire world's population.

You cannot deny that God has asked people to kill in his name before.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
This thread is shocking...just shocking.

Sorry.