Who's game?

Originally posted by chappy1
The ones cannonized were considered the most accurate. They were written within 50 years after Jesus's death.

I assume you are talking about the Gospels, and if so, are you including John since it was mostl likely written about 100 years after Jesus' death?

EDIT - We are hijacking this thread so I will stop here, but i wanted to add that the remaining three Gospels were likely written between 70-100 years after death according to most scholars. Not a big thing, but for the sake of accuracy...

Originally posted by vistesd
You know, Scotty, I have to admit the possibility that what I call the supernatural category might represent a real domain. Nevertheless, it remains for me an unnecessary metaphysical leap.

The power of the mind—either of itself or in response to environmental stimulus—seems eminently capable of projecting an illusive sensory experience (with or without ...[text shortened]... that you have some idea of what I’m talking about, whether you do any kind of meditation or not.

Hmm, interesting post. You seem to have an innate ability to confuse me though! I suspect with the reference to being perceptually aware before being consciously aware, you are talking about mu?

I'm more aware, I must admit, of mu as a scientist; when you 'know' something is wrong, or you see a pattern, without actually knowing consciously what it is (yet).

The best "mu-moment" for me was during the 2003 Scottish Universities Karate Championships in the first round where, 2 points down with 25 seconds to go, I scored a 3 point technique without any conscious knowledge of having done it. I remember thinking, "That's a great kick, I wonder who did it", as I watched my foot connect with my opponents head. I had a good day that day, and won 2nd in the senior fighting competition.

I agree wholly that the supernatural category, which conceptually possible, is nothing more than a leap of faith. I justify my lack of belief in gods in the same way I have a healthy lack of belief in the existence of Whodey!! 😛😀

Originally posted by TheSkipper
I assume you are talking about the Gospels, and if so, are you including John since it was mostl likely written about 100 years after Jesus' death?

EDIT - We are hijacking this thread so I will stop here, but i wanted to add that the remaining three Gospels were likely written between 70-100 years after death according to most scholars. Not a big thing, but for the sake of accuracy...

Feel free, hijack away!

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Hmm, interesting post. You seem to have an innate ability to confuse me though! I suspect with the reference to being perceptually aware before being consciously aware, you are talking about mu?

I'm more aware, I must admit, of mu as a scientist; when you 'know' something is wrong, or you see a pattern, without actually knowing consci ...[text shortened]... gods in the same way I have a healthy lack of belief in the existence of Whodey!! 😛😀

You seem to have an innate ability to confuse me though!

Sorry! (Nice to have some innate ability, though.) 😳

I suspect with the reference to being perceptually aware before being consciously aware, you are talking about mu?

Yes: mushin. I maintain, along with the Zen masters, that so-called “empty mind” is not empty of percepts, but only conceptualization. As Nakagawa Soen Roshi put it: “There is really no such thing as ‘empty mind’; there is just ‘present mind’”—before thinking.

I’ve been working really hard of late to try to put all that stuff in terms that does not necessitate the eastern terminology—which may account for some of the convolution. Probably a failed experiment.

The best "mu-moment" for me was during the 2003 Scottish Universities Karate Championships in the first round where, 2 points down with 25 seconds to go, I scored a 3 point technique without any conscious knowledge of having done it. I remember thinking, "That's a great kick, I wonder who did it", as I watched my foot connect with my opponents head. I had a good day that day, and won 2nd in the senior fighting competition.

That’s a wonderful story! The “I-making” mind collapses too (or the “I-concept” collapses in the whole of just tathata), and there is just what’s going on without the conscious I-separation: thus, “I wonder who did it?” I have experienced it once in awhile in tai chi, though mostly in still meditation (zazen) and cracking my concept-making-mind on a koan.

Originally posted by chappy1
Christians feel the need to try and convert because we are commanded to. I have no idea why atheists feel the need to convert. No idea at all.

Do you have a reference in the Bible that commands Christians to convert ? I doubt you cant find any! I know of references that commands Christians to preach the gospel. I also know that Christ said not to force anyone to listen to your preaching.


A failure to understand the difference between preaching and converting is what caused the foolish Christians of the middle ages to think that it was ok to kill those who dont want to be converted.

As for the reason why Christians and Atheists both feel the need to convert, its all about vanity. Its feeling that we have to power to convince our fellowman that we are right.

Christians are commanded to preach the good news about Christ to those who would like to hear. Christians are not commanded to preach to atheists who over and over say that Christianity and religion is foolishness.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Do you have a reference in the Bible that commands Christians to convert ? I doubt you cant find any! I know of references that commands Christians to preach the gospel. I also know that Christ said not to force anyone to listen to your preaching.


A failure to understand the difference between [b]preaching and converting is what caused the f ...[text shortened]... anded to preach to atheists who over and over say that Christianity and religion is foolishness.[/b]

You're right. We are commanded to preach the Good News and if the news converts then so be it. Of course no one should be forced to listen to anyone preach. Of course! However, I was asked my position on certain things and I'm simply stating them. I'm not forcing anyone and I hope your not implying that I am.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
[I agree wholly that the supernatural category, which conceptually possible, is nothing more than a leap of faith. I justify my lack of belief in gods in the same way I have a healthy lack of belief in the existence of Whodey!! 😛😀[/b]

:'(

Originally posted by whodey
:'(

Haha, only kidding old boy. I loves ya really!

Originally posted by vistesd
That’s a wonderful story! The “I-making” mind collapses too (or the “I-concept” collapses in the whole of just tathata), and there is just what’s going on without the conscious I-separation: thus, “I wonder who did it?” I have experienced it once in awhile in tai chi, though mostly in still meditation (zazen) and cracking my concept-making-mind on a koan.[/b]

I tried using this line on my wife the last time I left the seat down on the commode. I said, "But dear, it was the "I-concept" collapse in the whole of just tathata." Needless to say it did'nt go over to well. 😞

Originally posted by TheSkipper
This thread is shocking...just shocking.

😲

Originally posted by chappy1
No I absolutely would not because it would be contradictory to his Word in the Bible. Anything that is contradictory to his Word does not come from God.

In all fairness, however, God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac. Does this not go against what a God of love would ask?

I have always said that the Bible is full of apparent contradictions. That is not to say that they are actual contridictions, rather, there is the mere appearance of contradictions. Some we are able to work out and others we are not yet I believe all are workable despite our limited reasoning abilities. It makes one wonder what Abraham was thinking during that time, no?

Originally posted by whodey
😲

Well, whodey, I'm interested in some comment from you.

Some theists have admitted that they may be wrong (but, obviously, they don't think so), and some have flat our denied the possibility that they may be wrong.

To the first group, I asked what evidence would suffice to disprove God. This largely gave an answer of "none", which makes me wonder how they are different from the people who do not accept that they might be wrong. Many, yourself included, try to posit religion (and specifically Christianity) as a logical position, based upon some type of evidential position. But, if people are unwilling to accept counter-evidence, I don't see how their arguments can be valid. Otherwise, they are merely stating an assertion, rather than any logical position.

The second group I regard as very dangerous. They are absolutely certain God exists. Within many religions, these are the type of people who blow themselves up. They have no qualms about it, since they are doing it for God's glory, and they are certain God exists.

What are your feelings?

Originally posted by whodey
It makes one wonder what Abraham was thinking during that time, no?

I wonder what his son felt. I wonder how much the psychologists bill was afterwards.

Come to think of it, Jesus must have been pretty messed up, his father effectively sacrificing Jesus (by non-intervention and omniscience / omnipotence) whilst having the power to prevent it, easily. Indeed, God allowed Jesus to be sacrificed to him. At least Abraham could use the "I was just following orders" defence.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Well, whodey, I'm interested in some comment from you.

Some theists have admitted that they may be wrong (but, obviously, they don't think so), and some have flat our denied the possibility that they may be wrong.

To the first group, I asked what evidence would suffice to disprove God. This largely gave an answer of "none", which makes me wonder ...[text shortened]... are doing it for God's glory, and they are certain God exists.

What are your feelings?

Part of my feeling is that my belief resides alot in the actual teachings of Christianity. Specifically, the teachings Christ gave about the "kingdome of God". For example, love God and your fellow man are the greatest commmands. If one does this then one will keep the laws in the Torah without trying. For me this is a truth and is reality. Who can argue it? I know this may not seem as evidence of God to you, but it is to me. Truth is truth whether it be revealed in a test tube or what lies beyond this material universe.

Really, I feel sorry for those who do not have the beautifal simplicity of the gospels to base their theology from. It gives place to fanatical teachings of hate that you rightly point out. However, one need not have a reason to hate. I find that those who hate naturally find reasons to do so. What needs to be addressed is why we hate to begin with. This is the key.

Originally posted by whodey
I tried using this line on my wife the last time I left the seat down on the commode. I said, "But dear, it was the "I-concept" collapse in the whole of just tathata." Needless to say it did'nt go over to well. 😞

LOL!! Since that line didn't work for you, I’m going to try: “It was a mu moment: I wonder who left the toilet seat up?” (I steal half my lines from scottishinnz anyway. 😉 )