Why do the Christians care?

Originally posted by Starrman
Once more in English please.

Your knot abill too reed wut he rote their?

Gah!

P-

Originally posted by Joe Fist
I agree that mankind leans towards selfishness and I would consider myself a prime example. I can also see the selfless nature of charity being linked to "God".

My issue has always been which "God" and never so much the question of God's existence although I consider that as well. Each of our lives is its own journey and we all make choices about ...[text shortened]... nce you to believe what I believe because I know one thing in all of this: I don't know either.

I agree with you once again. I haven't had some flaming angel appear before me to confirm my belief in God to be the right one, but deep inside, I know and have peace about it.

Belief is a personal matter, but trust me, when you have experieced a life changing event its hard not to go out and tell people about it. It called sharing the Good News. Shoving it down their thoats is another matter entirely.

To believe or not to believe; that is the question. 😉 I really doubt that anybody would believe that a god exists and then just sit back and relax. Surely one would go out to search for the truth.

Originally posted by Halitose
I agree with you once again. I haven't had some flaming angel appear before me to confirm my belief in God to be the right one, but deep inside, I know and have peace about it.

Belief is a personal matter, but trust me, when you have experieced a life changing event its hard not to go out and tell people about it. It called sharing the Good News. Shovi ...[text shortened]... a god exists and then just sit back and relax. Surely one would go out to search for the truth.

I really doubt that anybody would believe that a god exists and then just sit back and relax. Surely one would go out to search for the truth.

Well I guess I would be that "anybody" then. I enjoy hearing about different beliefs to attempt to decipher things for myself but for the most part, I am relaxed. I think for me that is the nature of Agnosticism. That perhaps there is something greater than me that created all of this and I will hopefully learn about it. I also think that it is quite possible that this life is all there is so we should enjoy it as much as possible. I think it is intentional by whatever created us to not know for certain these things and for us to sort things out for ourselves. Obviously our sorting out has taken us on different paths but both make sense to us. I am not saying you personally but some people (Christians and non-Christians alike) are consumed with spreading what they believe to others but it makes me question why they feel that need? Do they need to do this for their own verification? For what I believe, I could careless if anyone believes it because it makes total sense to me. It does not require conversion of others.

Originally posted by Joe Fist
[b]I really doubt that anybody would believe that a god exists and then just sit back and relax. Surely one would go out to search for the truth.

Well I guess I would be that "anybody" then. I enjoy hearing about different belief ...[text shortened]... es total sense to me. It does not require conversion of others.
[/b]

You don't even have the smallest urge to try out anything else? Would it be rude of me to ask if you have previously tried anything else?

Originally posted by Halitose
You don't even have the smallest urge to try out anything else? Would it be rude of me to ask if you have previously tried anything else?

Nah it's not rude but I have tried Catholicism and Christianity. Both seem to be lacking for me. I just do not think the answers to our existence and the universe are found in any book or belief system created by man. I have heard it claimed that the Bible is the word of God and I don't dispute it but I don't believe it either. I am extremely content in not attaching myself completely to any of the common beliefs of the world for it does not limit what could be possible.

The "Jesus" based religions seem to be concerned with converting the masses and that is something I will never understand? As you have asked about the urge I have had don't you have the passing feeling at times and still do that perhaps everything you believe about Christ is wrong or false? Why I think it is noble that you work with these AIDS invested children, do you ever think why God plagues them (and for that matter the world) with such a horrific disease in the first place?

You might answer that "God works in mysterious ways" and okay I can't deny that but I don't accept it either because it seems a little too "mysterious" for me to cause the deaths of thousands by natural disasters, diseases, murderous tendencies, etc...

Originally posted by Joe Fist
Nah it's not rude but I have tried Catholicism and Christianity. Both seem to be lacking for me. I just do not think the answers to our existence and the universe are found in any book or belief system created by man. I have heard it claimed that the Bible is the word of God and I don't dispute it but I don't believe it either. I am extremely content ...[text shortened]... me to cause the deaths of thousands by natural disasters, diseases, murderous tendencies, etc...

Fine. You are completely entitled to your belief.

don't you have the passing feeling at times and still do that perhaps everything you believe about Christ is wrong or false?

Sure I do. We are all human. We are all trying to rationalise and think things through for ourselves (at least, I hope we do). My faith in Christ has weathered all these storms.

The "Jesus" based religions seem to be concerned with converting the masses and that is something I will never understand?

Forceful conversion is an oxymoron. Trying to force somebody into a faith is absolutely pointless. My motto with Christianity is that our deeds are talking so loudly, that nobody can hear what we are saying. This is however a little different on a chess forum, as what we type is all there is to it. I wouldn't blame somebody for coming to tell me about a free gift thats up for grabs. Forcing me to take it is another story. I believe that as Christians it would be wrong to not share our faith, even if it is just in deed. A little hard to do that on the forum though. (the deed thing)

do you ever think why God plagues them (and for that matter the world) with such a horrific disease in the first place?

Sure I do. AIDS is a sexually transmitted disease. (forgive me for stating the obvious) In this neck of the woods, our family structures have disintegrated into gratuitous self-indulgence. If our families had functioned the way they were intended to, (mutual faithfulness within a monogomous marriage) there would be no HIV. It would have been wiped out within a single generation. AIDS is a natural consequence of our breaking God's law. I know this is harsh. But just as I believe putting your hand into a fire results in being burned, I believe that breaking God's moral law results in consequences. For some of these kids, life is really tragic. I think of one 10 year old girl who was repeatedly raped by her uncle for months, before she came to one of our centres. The uncle is HIV positive. We are still waiting for her results. Most probably this innocent child is also HIV positive. She has about 5 years more to live. This is a consequence of the actions of her uncle. If he doesn't repent, he will have a lot to answer to one day. Sure. I would have liked God to come down and smite this man, but I believe God in his love is giving this man another chance. He is also giving me the chance to reveal His love to this child.

Darn. I hope I'm not depressing everybody.

Originally posted by Halitose
Fine. You are completely entitled to your belief.

[b]don't you have the passing feeling at times and still do that perhaps everything you believe about Christ is wrong or false?

Sure I do. We are all human. We are all trying to rationalise and think things through for ourselves (at least, I hope we do). My faith in Christ has weathered all these ...[text shortened]... e chance to reveal His love to this child.

Darn. I hope I'm not depressing everybody.

[/b]

Sure I do. We are all human. We are all trying to rationalize and think things through for ourselves (at least, I hope we do). My faith in Christ has weathered all these storms.

I admire the fact that you stuck to your guns throughout these storms. Although you might inherently disagree with me I think you understand why I believe differently than you.

Forceful conversion is an oxymoron. Trying to force somebody into a faith is absolutely pointless. My motto with Christianity is that our deeds are talking so loudly, that nobody can hear what we are saying. This is however a little different on a chess forum, as what we type is all there is to it. I wouldn't blame somebody for coming to tell me about a free gift thats up for grabs. Forcing me to take it is another story. I believe that as Christians it would be wrong to not share our faith, even if it is just in deed. A little hard to do that on the forum though. (the deed thing)

Well at times in this forum, it tends to be the somewhat and perhaps unintentional condescending method that some people promote their message that tends to repel people. I am confident you believe that I am completely wrong in how I feel about Christ and I may suffer the consequences if I don’t rectify that. I am equally confident you perhaps can sense I have mutual feelings about your beliefs. Nonetheless, I think we are having a pleasant neutral conversation but in the end, they will all lead to the same place of “agreeing to disagree”. I think most of the non-Christians that chat here have stomped their foot enough with these kind of arguments and we are ready for something new. At least in my experience, many of the Christian folk who post here tend to post as I wrote, “variations of the same theme”.

Sure I do. AIDS is a sexually transmitted disease. (forgive me for stating the obvious) In this neck of the woods, our family structures have disintegrated into gratuitous self-indulgence. If our families had functioned the way they were intended to, (mutual faithfulness within a monogamous marriage) there would be no HIV. It would have been wiped out within a single generation. AIDS is a natural consequence of our breaking God's law. I know this is harsh. But just as I believe putting your hand into a fire results in being burned, I believe that breaking God's moral law results in consequences. For some of these kids, life is really tragic. I think of one 10 year old girl who was repeatedly raped by her uncle for months, before she came to one of our centres. The uncle is HIV positive. We are still waiting for her results. Most probably this innocent child is also HIV positive. She has about 5 years more to live. This is a consequence of the actions of her uncle. If he doesn't repent, he will have a lot to answer to one day. Sure. I would have liked God to come down and smite this man, but I believe God in his love is giving this man another chance. He is also giving me the chance to reveal His love to this child.

Okay, I will not attempt to argue whether or not AIDS is a natural consequence of breaking God’s law because, quite simply, I don’t know. What about cancer? Diabetes? Down Syndrome? Etc. What law did the hypothetical good Christian at age 20 acquired an inoperable tumor in their brain who now has 6 months to live? Which one of the laws do young children who are the victims of such animals like the “uncle” who raped that 10 year girl break? In your example, what did that 10 year old girl do to violate God’s law? Why will God cause immeasurable suffering in the remaining five years of this girl’s life? What did she do to anybody? Meanwhile, celebrities and professional athletes give all their praise to God for a successful endeavor (box office hit, scoring a touchdown, etc). And this doesn’t sound a little crazy or slighted?

Originally posted by Joe Fist
[b]Sure I do. We are all human. We are all trying to rationalize and think things through for ourselves (at least, I hope we do). My faith in Christ has weathered all these storms.

I admire the fact that you stuck to your guns throu ...[text shortened]... uchdown, etc). And this doesn’t sound a little crazy or slighted?[/b]

I admire the fact that you stuck to your guns throughout these storms. Although you might inherently disagree with me I think you understand why I believe differently than you.

Sure. Our lives aren't carbon copies of each other. Different people experecience life in a different way and reach different conclusions even though they look at the same thing. At the end of it all, I'm left with my personal experience. I can only talk for myself, when I say that faith in Christ revolutionizes your life and gives more meaning and undersanding to life. I can guarantee you though, that the Christian faith is definitely not moonshine and a bed of roses. Paradise may have been, but what we have left of it, most certainly not.

Well at times in this forum, it tends to be the somewhat and perhaps unintentional condescending method that some people promote their message that tends to repel people. I am confident you believe that I am completely wrong in how I feel about Christ and I may suffer the consequences if I don’t rectify that. I am equally confident you perhaps can sense I have mutual feelings about your beliefs. Nonetheless, I think we are having a pleasant neutral conversation but in the end, they will all lead to the same place of “agreeing to disagree”. I think most of the non-Christians that chat here have stomped their foot enough with these kind of arguments and we are ready for something new. At least in my experience, many of the Christian folk who post here tend to post as I wrote, “variations of the same theme”.

Sigh. I hate "agree to disagree" endings. Any suggestions?

Okay, I will not attempt to argue whether or not AIDS is a natural consequence of breaking God’s law because, quite simply, I don’t know. What about cancer? Diabetes? Down Syndrome? Etc. What law did the hypothetical good Christian at age 20 acquired an inoperable tumor in their brain who now has 6 months to live?

Sickness, pain, suffering. These are all ingredients of human life. I'm going to resort to the classical answer that these are all as a result of the original curse; when original man disobeyed God and chose against him. Regarding the hypothetical question, allow me to quote some scripture (KJV).

Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Which one of the laws do young children who are the victims of such animals like the “uncle” who raped that 10 year girl break? In your example, what did that 10 year old girl do to violate God’s law? Why will God cause immeasurable suffering in the remaining five years of this girl’s life? What did she do to anybody? Meanwhile, celebrities and professional athletes give all their praise to God for a successful endeavor (box office hit, scoring a touchdown, etc). And this doesn’t sound a little crazy or slighted?

Here's what I believe; I hope I don't get excommunicated for this: God gave us a free will. In exercising our free will, we also bear the consequences of our deeds. These consequences affect those around us as well. We aren't just sealed jars; we interact, share ideas, laugh together, ridicule each other, so too are our lives intertwined with the results of our deeds, the good and the bad.

The child was innocent, but now she is suffering for the deeds of her uncle. Unfair? From my frugal human perception, I can't even begin to immagine what she must have gone through. But I also believe in the greater good. God's ways are far beyond what we can ever begin to grasp in our myopic view on life. I believe that God allowed this to happen to draw people to Himself, even if it was just for this post on a chess site to a complete stranger. If you think about it, life on earth is just a drop in the ocean compared to eternity. If ten years of suffering cause one to turn to Christ, I think in the greater scope of things, this is a fair trade - no? Celebrities and athletes. Well, they wouldn't be much if it weren't for all the people worshiping them. Will throwing 50 consecutive touchdown passes in a superbowl, echo in eternity, I really doubt it. On the other hand, touching a life...... hmmmmmm? What'd'ya think?

Originally posted by Joe Fist
Honestly, I would like to know. I, like probably everybody else, knows the standard answer you will give:

"Because if you knew the glory of Jesus Christ you will know a closeness and a bliss that you have never known before and you will be one with Him in Heaven..."

Something like that, right? But I honestly don't think the thumpers who post the ...[text shortened]... to spread your message. What's that? Oh yeah, that would be the work of a "real Christian".

Interesting.. your post got me thinking. I think if theres a person who truely believes in Gods, and his saving grace, that he would go out and do His work. I may be guilty of not doing enough. I been working on my sinfull habits and been gaining victory, but I still have a allot to work on, and I always thought it was being a hypacrite to tell the good news, when I myself is still struggling to stay pure. I plan on dedicating my whole life to helping people who was like me, I know I probaly should do more now, as I am so thankfull for the people who led me to true joy.

Thx for opening this thread

Originally posted by Halitose
[b]I admire the fact that you stuck to your guns throughout these storms. Although you might inherently disagree with me I think you understand why I believe differently than you.

Sure. Our lives aren't carbon copies of each other. Different people experecience life in a different way and reach different conclusions even though they look at the sam ...[text shortened]... eally doubt it. On the other hand, touching a life...... hmmmmmm? What'd'ya think?

[/b]

I can guarantee you though, that the Christian faith is definitely not moonshine and a bed of roses. Paradise may have been, but what we have left of it, most certainly not.

Well I think that can be said for any life really and not exclusively Christian. I would guess the minority homosexual in modern society has a lifestyle that is far from desirable as far as being accepted. At least it appears here in this forum, there is a desire to reform the non-Christian. Everybody has there own wagon to haul. Sometimes it is filled with “moonshine and a bed of roses”. Other times, it is manure.

Sigh. I hate "agree to disagree" endings. Any suggestions?

No because that is what is important to me, we agree to disagree which means although our roads to spiritual enlightenment differ dramatically, we are careful to be respectful of it.

Sickness, pain, suffering. These are all ingredients of human life. I'm going to resort to the classical answer that these are all as a result of the original curse; when original man disobeyed God and chose against him. Regarding the hypothetical question, allow me to quote some scripture (KJV).

Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Perhaps you could paraphrase what this scripture means to you. I think it is cruel to punish the whole of humanity with violence, disasters, disease, greed, etc for the mistake of eating the forbidden fruit. I think it is extremely vengeful for innocent children to suffer from AIDS and die before they had a chance at life.

Here's what I believe; I hope I don't get excommunicated for this: God gave us a free will. In exercising our free will, we also bear the consequences of our deeds. These consequences affect those around us as well. We aren't just sealed jars; we interact, share ideas, laugh together, ridicule each other, so too are our lives intertwined with the results of our deeds, the good and the bad.

Well I doubt you will get excommunicated but I don’t think for me that holds up. I cannot even watch the news anymore because without a doubt, there will most likely be a story of a child suffering a brutal rape and death. There is no justification for the occurrence of this and I refuse to buy in that it is the gift of free will that caused this.

The child was innocent, but now she is suffering for the deeds of her uncle. Unfair? From my frugal human perception, I can't even begin to imagine what she must have gone through. But I also believe in the greater good. God's ways are far beyond what we can ever begin to grasp in our myopic view on life. I believe that God allowed this to happen to draw people to Himself, even if it was just for this post on a chess site to a complete stranger. If you think about it, life on earth is just a drop in the ocean compared to eternity. If ten years of suffering cause one to turn to Christ, I think in the greater scope of things, this is a fair trade - no?

With all due respect….HELL NO!!!! One death to accommodate the conversation of two strangers on a chess site is too great of a loss. I cannot believe anyone would think that.

Celebrities and athletes. Well, they wouldn't be much if it weren't for all the people worshiping them. Will throwing 50 consecutive touchdown passes in a superbowl, echo in eternity, I really doubt it. On the other hand, touching a life...... hmmmmmm? What'd'ya think?

I agree with the perverse “idol worship” of these individuals is out of control but as I said above, the death or knowing of some horrific experience to happen to someone just to have a third party discuss Christianity is ten thousand times worse.

Originally posted by Joe Fist
[b]I can guarantee you though, that the Christian faith is definitely not moonshine and a bed of roses. Paradise may have been, but what we have left of it, most certainly not.

Well I think that can be said for any life really and not exclusively Christian. I would guess the minority homosexual in modern society has a lifestyle that is far from desi ...[text shortened]... o happen to someone just to have a third party discuss Christianity is ten thousand times worse.[/b]

Man is always in search of answers.

With all due respect….[b]HELL NO!!!! One death to accommodate the conversation of two strangers on a chess site is too great of a loss. I cannot believe anyone would think that.[/b]

You are right it was a gross oversimplification and ill-placed analogy on my part. I could also allude to fatigue... 😛

Anyways. Moving on...

I find the topic of suffering to be quite mulitfaceted.

I believe God created the universe with physical and moral laws, which may operate beneficially for some but not for others. (We may say water which is 'beautifully warm' to an adult will burn a small child). Morally, because wrong actions result where free wills operate, the possibility of suffering is inevitable. God does not violate the aggressive person's will to strike the innocent, nor the rapist's will to rape.

Pain is an integral part of our life. As humans, we cause pain by being born, live by inflicting pain, and in pain we mostly die. Why? And how, without external intervention did human beings attribute the universe to the activity of a wise and good Creator?

We humans have deliberately abused our free-will, one of God's best gifts to us. And we are not getting any better; not even the animals treat other creatures as badly as humans sometimes treat each other. But God has the antidote: he saw the crucifixion of his Son in the act of creating the first nebulae. God himself assumes the suffering nature which evil produces, and offers forgiveness, and life in Christ.

Because we are rebels-against-God who must lay down our arms, some of our suffering may indeed constitute God's megaphone to rouse a deaf world to surrender. There is a universal feeling that bad people ought to suffer: without a concept of 'retribution' punishment is rendered unjust. But until evil persons find evil unmistakably present in their existence, in the form of suffering, they are enclosed in an illusion. Suffering may provide the only opportunity they may have for amendment. It is hard to turn our thoughts to God when things are going well. To 'have all we want' is a terrible saying when 'all' does not include God.

So God troubles our selfishness, which stands between us and the recognition of our need. God's divine humility stoops to conquer, even if we choose him merely as an alternative to hell. Yet even this he accepts!

Just a quick line of logic for free will and the suffering it allows:

1. If God created man truly seperate and free to choose his own actions, then that very creative act allows the possibility of circumstances which God deems unacceptable.

2. These cirsumstances deemed unacceptible by God are called evil.

3. Hence, if anything other than God exists, then the possibility of evil must also exist.

I have found great insight from CS Lewis' book: "The Problem of Pain", a book I can certainly recommend.

Here are a few quotations from it:

"God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: it is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world."
"[Pain] removes the veil; it plants the flag of truth within the fortress of a rebel soul."
"Love may forgive all infirmities and love still in spite of them: but Love cannot cease to will their removal."
"If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows...then we must starve eternally."
"Everyone feels benevolent if nothing happens to be annoying him at the moment."
"We have a strange illusion that mere time cancels sin. But mere time does nothing either to the fact or to the guilt of a sin."
"It is by human avarice or human stupidity, not by the churlishness of nature, that we have poverty and overwork."
"It matters enormously if I alienate anyone from the truth."
"Those who would like the God of scripture to be more purely ethical, do not know what they ask."
"[God] is not proud...He will have us even though we have shown that we prefer everything else to Him."
If God were a Kantian, who would not have us till we came to Him from the purest and best motives, who could be saved?"
"Tribulations cannot cease until God either sees us remade or sees that our remaking is now hopeless."
"Those who would most scornfully repudiate Christianity as a mere "opiate of the people" have a contempt for the rich, that is, for all mankind except the poor."
"Every uncorrected error and unrepented sin is, in its own right, a fountain of fresh error and fresh sin flowing on to the end of time."
"God will look to every soul like its first love because He is its first love."

Originally posted by Joe Fist
Nah it's not rude but I have tried Catholicism and Christianity. Both seem to be lacking for me. I just do not think the answers to our existence and the universe are found in any book or belief system created by man. I have heard it c ...[text shortened]... sands by natural disasters, diseases, murderous tendencies, etc...

I have tried Catholicism and Christianity. Both seem to be lacking for me.

I'm interested in picking up on this point. What was lacking? What would be your requirements be for a belief that isn't lacking?

Originally posted by Joe Fist
[b]I can guarantee you though, that the Christian faith is definitely not moonshine and a bed of roses. Paradise may have been, but what we have left of it, most certainly not.

Well I think that can be said for any life really and n ...[text shortened]... ve a third party discuss Christianity is ten thousand times worse.[/b]

Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Okay what this scripture means to me... God tests our faith. Surely pure gold cannot be obtained without putting it through a furnace, so too the sincerity and depth of our faith is tested through suffering. The second verse explains that although God allows us to be tested, He will not allow us to be tested above what we bear.

Originally posted by Halitose
[b]Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

...[text shortened]... at although God allows us to be tested, He will not allow us to be tested above what we bear. [/b]

Found it. Here's a verse to back up the gold analogy:

1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Originally posted by Halitose
Found it. Here's a verse to back up the gold analogy:

1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

I believe God created the universe with physical and moral laws, which may operate beneficially for some but not for others. (We may say water which is 'beautifully warm' to an adult will burn a small child). Morally, because wrong actions result where free wills operate, the possibility of suffering is inevitable. God does not violate the aggressive person's will to strike the innocent, nor the rapist's will to rape.

Yeah but you just wrote that God created these laws then why can’t God manipulate them so they will be beneficial for all and not just some? It is like saying the inventor of an automobile at first fails by putting the gas tank too close to the rear bumper so when a rear end collision occurs, the car explodes and the driver dies. Does the inventor not modify the car so this does not happen again? Can’t God wipe the human slate clean and free of original sin so that all of mankind does not have to suffer anymore? Why doesn’t God violate the will of an aggressor or a rapist for the better? Free will? I think that suffering is too much of a cost for free will if that is the case.

Pain is an integral part of our life. As humans, we cause pain by being born, live by inflicting pain, and in pain we mostly die. Why? And how, without external intervention did human beings attribute the universe to the activity of a wise and good Creator?

But again, if we suppose the story of Creationism is true, why should all of mankind suffer because of Adam and Eve? Maybe I am nuts but I would rather be healthy and happy and be thought of as a flock by God absent of free will then to go through and witness the atrocities of mankind. While pain exists, I doubt it is required to have a fulfilling life.

We humans have deliberately abused our free-will, one of God's best gifts to us. And we are not getting any better; not even the animals treat other creatures as badly as humans sometimes treat each other.

Then I have a suggestion for God: Either loosen up on the cost and penalties of having free will or strip mankind of free will altogether and place us in a state of bliss where the notion of having free will would never occur to us. I don’t like the idea of life being some sort of “trial” where all along it is God that created the conditions of this trial to begin with.


But God has the antidote: he saw the crucifixion of his Son in the act of creating the first nebulae. God himself assumes the suffering nature which evil produces, and offers forgiveness, and life in Christ.

With all due respect, I never got and still don’t get that connection either. Having your son endure some pretty horrific torture and a painful death for the sins of mankind? Aside from the Bible, how does that in anyway make any logical sense? To me that it is like a non-sequiter, like if I were to cut my thumb slicing a tomato, the solution would be to go bowling or something. I don’t see how God has provided this antidote?