03 Sep 05
Originally posted by menace71Hey Manny,
I would have agree with Joe to some extent. I have some good friends who now live in New Mexico who because of church politics got kicked out of a parsonage while my friends wife was 8 months pregnant. My friend while not perfect is a good example of a Christian. He was working with inner city youth at the time when this happened. These kids were from tough ...[text shortened]... t is a stab too me at times gets me down off my high horse. Manny ps hows it going Joe??
I haven't heard from you in awhile. I am doing well thanks 🙂 How are you doing?
Joe
03 Sep 05
Originally posted by Joe FistAre these pointers on Calvinism or on what you believe? I am sorry I might be confused?
[b]True. I can't really say for sure, I hope I'm not being redundant, and as I said before theology is not my forte, but here's a few pointers.
Are these pointers on Calvinism or on what you believe? I am sorry I might be confused?
1. Compared to God, man is very insignificant.
I understand the logic of that statement from most rel ...[text shortened]... y crimes is not a prison sentence, but restoration.[/b]
So do you support capital punishment?[/b]
My apologies, I was rather ambiguous there. These are my views.
I think an argument can be made that it is Man that gives importance and reverence to God so wouldn’t both be significant? Granted God could wipe mankind out without a thought but, if that were the case, who would be here to worship Him?
True. That is why I think that man was created to serve and worship God, and in turn God makes us His children.
This sounds very non Christian and very accepting.
What I meant was that to have a choice in serving God, there had to be alternatives.
Sure but I think for the most part you are right. I think most of us who are agnostic and atheist have wrestled in their own way with spirituality before just accepting the current path we are on. As you have determined Christianity is right for you, the people like myself have decided the other and at least for myself I have more comfort in what I feel than anything I have experienced before.
Fair enough.
But what if a person who is good but does not seek God? Or does not believe in God? Would they be regarded as evil although they are by all standards a morally upstanding citizen?
Right but is it enough for a person to live a good life without God to not suffer damnation?
I believe God looks at the heart (the Christian term for motives, will, decisions and other paraphernalia that make up our actions). I don't deny that there are morally upstanding people, but as Christ says, He came for the sinners like me.
Sure and I think you have already answered my next question but is it not enough to life a moral life without Christ? Even if a person has been exposed to Christ but does not necessarily believe or maybe perhaps they question?
Sure. Christ came to save sinners.
Sure but I would say both are working towards the same idea, no?
Perhaps in a general sense, although I haven't looked to much into Buddhism, Hinduism etc, I find unreconcilable differences. One such example is reincarnation in Hinduism, which has resulted in the venerated (sacred) cows in India. I can't remember the exact number, but these cows eat food that could have been given to tens of millions of starving Indians. Buddhism teaches that by personal meditation etc, one can earn your way into heaven or in their case nirvana.
So, without putting words in your mouth, does it sound like the label of a Christian is not as important as living the life of one?
Yes.
I am not really into vengeance but more so the idea that those who are criminals are not worthy of any type of kindness or rehabilitation simply because if they committed this crime there is a possibility they could do it again. It is more so for safety purposes.
Yes. I agree with you here. I think the biblical principle of restitution is quite pertinent. For example, a petty thief has to make restitution by returning the stolen goods with interest. I personally would think twice about stealing a porsche, because I will be paying it off for a couple decades to the owner, compared to the 6 months in prison. When it comes to violent crime, like murder, when one takes a life, by restitution, you forfeit your own. Of course this is only for premeditated murder not manslaughter.
So do you support capital punishment?
I would, if it was instituted in the correct way.
05 Sep 05
Originally posted by HalitoseMy apologies, I was rather ambiguous there. These are my views.
[b]Are these pointers on Calvinism or on what you believe? I am sorry I might be confused?
My apologies, I was rather ambiguous there. These are my views.
I think an argument can be made that it is Man that gives importance and reverence to God so wouldn’t both be significant? Granted God could wipe mankind out without a thought but, if tha ...[text shortened]... b]So do you support capital punishment?
I would, if it was instituted in the correct way.[/b]
No worries. I pretty much figured it out after reading them more.
True. That is why I think that man was created to serve and worship God, and in turn God makes us His children.
Makes sense from that perspective.
What I meant was that to have a choice in serving God, there had to be alternatives.
What type of “alternatives”? Do you mean alternatives as far as other beliefs?
I believe God looks at the heart (the Christian term for motives, will, decisions and other paraphernalia that make up our actions). I don't deny that there are morally upstanding people, but as Christ says, He came for the sinners like me.
Sure. Christ came to save sinners.
Well, again, let me compliment on both your articulation and open-mindedness in your expression of Christianity. I think although I may still disagree you have provided answers to every question I have asked.
Perhaps in a general sense, although I haven't looked to much into Buddhism, Hinduism etc, I find unreconcilable differences. One such example is reincarnation in Hinduism, which has resulted in the venerated (sacred) cows in India. I can't remember the exact number, but these cows eat food that could have been given to tens of millions of starving Indians. Buddhism teaches that by personal meditation etc, one can earn your way into heaven or in their case nirvana.
Right but I was referring in the “general sense” anyway and not the particular nuances of Eastern religion.
So, without putting words in your mouth, does it sound like the label of a Christian is not as important as living the life of one?
Yes.
So if that is so, I think it is fair to say there are a lot of great non-Christians in the world who live a life of service and charity absent of the belief in Christ. Just as there are a great many people who call themselves Christian and do not. Just as there are many great Christians, like yourself. My point is for me, that I believe religion or belief in a religion is not as critical as living a life that you can be proud of in the end. Do you agree or disagree?
Yes. I agree with you here. I think the biblical principle of restitution is quite pertinent. For example, a petty thief has to make restitution by returning the stolen goods with interest. I personally would think twice about stealing a porsche, because I will be paying it off for a couple decades to the owner, compared to the 6 months in prison. When it comes to violent crime, like murder, when one takes a life, by restitution, you forfeit your own. Of course this is only for premeditated murder not manslaughter.
Yeah I do agree with you completely here.
05 Sep 05
Originally posted by menace71Well Manny feel free to jump in, please. That goes for anybody who cares to. That is what open discussion is about 🙂
yeah still bumbling along at chess. Good stuff between you & halitose.
I did not mean to jump into your on going discussion like that. I just had some strongs feelings about what you started the thread with.
Manny
07 Sep 05
Originally posted by Joe FistWhat type of “alternatives”? Do you mean alternatives as far as other beliefs?
[b]My apologies, I was rather ambiguous there. These are my views.
No worries. I pretty much figured it out after reading them more.
True. That is why I think that man was created to serve and worship God, and in turn God makes us His children.
Makes sense from that perspective.
What I meant was that to have a choice in serving ...[text shortened]... only for premeditated murder not manslaughter.
Yeah I do agree with you completely here.[/b]
No. I mean't it in the sense that for us to be able to choose God, there must be alternatives, ie. choosing something other than God.
Well, again, let me compliment on both your articulation and open-mindedness in your expression of Christianity. I think although I may still disagree you have provided answers to every question I have asked.
Thanks.
Right but I was referring in the “general sense” anyway and not the particular nuances of Eastern religion.
Well in a general sense, the big difference is the savior figure in Christianity and man being able to interact with God.
So if that is so, I think it is fair to say there are a lot of great non-Christians in the world who live a life of service and charity absent of the belief in Christ. Just as there are a great many people who call themselves Christian and do not.
Okay.
My point is for me, that I believe religion or belief in a religion is not as critical as living a life that you can be proud of in the end. Do you agree or disagree?
I'd be inclined to agree here, but does that mean "the end" of our life here on earth, or eternity?
07 Sep 05
1 edit
Originally posted by HalitoseVishnu is the Hindu saviour. I believe his most popular avatar is Krishna. You could interact with him if you were so inclined:
Well in a general sense, the big difference is the savior figure in Christianity and man being able to interact with God.
"When you cultivate love for a particular form of the Lord in your heart, he will appear before you, and you will appear before him in a particular form suited for his service. Otherwise, there is no such thing as his appearance, for it is he alone who exists everywhere at all times. "
The Bhagavad-Gita is well worth reading if you can find a decent translation (avoid the Hare Krishna version...).
As for sacred cows, that is superstition and lack of common sense, much like that business of looking for lost sheep on the Sabbath. Arguably, though, sacred cows roaming while people starve is no worse than dumping milk to keep the price up. And the real causes of hunger perhaps lie somewhere else...have a read:
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Poverty/FoodDumping/Intro.asp
(I expect Halitose you are not a stranger to these issues, what do you think?)
07 Sep 05
2 edits
Originally posted by HalitoseNo. I mean't it in the sense that for us to be able to choose God, there must be alternatives, ie. choosing something other than God.
[b]What type of “alternatives”? Do you mean alternatives as far as other beliefs?
No. I mean't it in the sense that for us to be able to choose God, there must be alternatives, ie. choosing something other than God.
Well, again, let me compliment on both your articulation and open-mindedness in your expression of Christianity. I think althou ...[text shortened]... e inclined to agree here, but does that mean "the end" of our life here on earth, or eternity?
Can you give an example? Because I still interpret this as choosing an alternate belief?
Well in a general sense, the big difference is the savior figure in Christianity and man being able to interact with God.
Do you mean “savior figure” in the sense that Christ did give his life for all of humanity whereas (and I am not an expert) I am not sure if any other religion has the same type of figure?
I'd be inclined to agree here, but does that mean "the end" of our life here on earth, or eternity?
Well because of varying opinions on the “afterlife” I was specifically referring to our own mortal coil. Religious beliefs aside for the moment, do we really have any control of our destination in eternity?
P.S. - Sorry about it all being in bold. I think I put in the separators correctly but for some reason it is putting all text in bold.
07 Sep 05
Originally posted by Bosse de NageKrishna/Vishnu (or his other nine avatars) are not Saviours in the sense that Christ was. Krishna's primary purpose was to vanquish a specific evil person, not evil altogether.
Vishnu is the Hindu saviour. I believe his most popular avatar is Krishna. You could interact with him if you were so inclined:
08 Sep 05
1 edit
Originally posted by Joe FistCan you give an example? Because I still interpret this as choosing an alternate belief?[/b]
[b]No. I mean't it in the sense that for us to be able to choose God, there must be alternatives, ie. choosing something other than God.
Can you give an example? Because I still interpret this as choosing an alternate belief?
Well in a general sense, the big difference is the savior figure in Christianity and man being able to interact with ...[text shortened]... . I think I put in the separators correctly but for some reason it is putting all text in bold.
Yes. I guess you could say that, although this alternative belief could be considered tantamount to choosing against God.
Do you mean “savior figure” in the sense that Christ did give his life for all of humanity whereas (and I am not an expert) I am not sure if any other religion has the same type of figure?
Yes. I did my homework and came up with a couple more differences. One of the basic councepts of Eastern thought is is the concept of the material illusion (maya in Hindu); the material world is an illusion, and sin is nothing but ignorance about the the fact of illusion. Christianity however teaches that the world has objective reality, and sin, far from being mere ignorance of material illusion, is willful rebellion against the very real, infinite God.
The law of karma is an intricate belief of many of the eastern religions. Good karma or good works is the way a person will be delivered from the cycle of rebirth, while bad karma will result in a person being reborn in a lower form that the previous life. Salvation is therefore based on works.
The Bible teaches that human deeds aren't really part of the equation. "Saved by Grace. (Titus 3:5). Works do have a very vital place, but they are a grateful and beautiful expression of our salvation.
Well because of varying opinions on the “afterlife” I was specifically referring to our own mortal coil. Religious beliefs aside for the moment, do we really have any control of our destination in eternity?
No. Outside of religion, all one can ever hope for is a great life and a glorious death.
P.S. - Sorry about it all being in bold. I think I put in the separators correctly but for some reason it is putting all text in bold.
No worries. It's normally the very first seperator that is duplicated. Something like having to many brackets in your mathematical equation.
08 Sep 05
Originally posted by Bosse de NageAs for sacred cows, that is superstition and lack of common sense, much like that business of looking for lost sheep on the Sabbath.
Vishnu is the Hindu saviour. I believe his most popular avatar is Krishna. You could interact with him if you were so inclined:
"When you cultivate love for a particular form of the Lord in your heart, he will appear before you, and you will appear before him in a particular form suited for his service. Otherwise, there is no such thing as his appe ...[text shortened]... ping/Intro.asp
(I expect Halitose you are not a stranger to these issues, what do you think?)
100 %
Arguably, though, sacred cows roaming while people starve is no worse than dumping milk to keep the price up. And the real causes of hunger perhaps lie somewhere else...have a read:
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Poverty/FoodDumping/Intro.asp
Very interesting. I think in Africa more than any other continent, the Marxist idea (perversion) 😛 of food as a weapon is being experienced as a harsh reality. Zimbabwe immediately comes to mind.