07 Mar 07
Originally posted by VarqaThe reason for that is you have been TAUGHT that, it did not come from a god, it came from people who WANT you to be dependent on their dogma, thus making their power base larger. They care nothing about you personally, I am speaking of the upper ranks of whatever religion you are trapped in.
Maybe you are right. Who knows.
I just know that I can not live in a world in which God did not exist. My life would be so meaningless and empty. If you can live in that world, well power to you. Why do you have to ruin it for the rest of us who need Him?
07 Mar 07
Originally posted by PenguinRubbish is in the eye of the beholder.
Reading the Thermodynamics thread, I thought I'd mention Michael Shermer's book "Why People Believe Weird Things". Anyone else read it? Thoughts?
Weird beliefs are given as things like Intelligent Design, Young Earth Creationism, UFO Abductions, Holocaust denial, Witch crazes
The book does not explicitly list all the reasons in one place but I'll list ...[text shortened]... ns why intelligent, educated people still believe weird things?
--- Penguin.
Kelly
07 Mar 07
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayIndeed and I do wonder which currently widely held beliefs will be considered just plain weird in 100 years (I know which ones I hope will be disposed of).
Rubbish is in the eye of the beholder.
Kelly
I think that the scientific method and critical thinking are the ways in which they will be routed out. Maybe that in itself is a weird belief.
--- Penguin
07 Mar 07
Originally posted by sonhouseOh no. Don't tell me, you also believe the Apollo Moon landings were faked, and there's aliens undergoing experiments in some secretive US facility?
The reason for that is you have been TAUGHT that, it did not come from a god, it came from people who WANT you to be dependent on their dogma, thus making their power base larger. They care nothing about you personally, I am speaking of the upper ranks of whatever religion you are trapped in.
07 Mar 07
Originally posted by VarqaI just know that I can not live in a world in which God did not exist. My life would be so meaningless and empty.
Maybe you are right. Who knows.
I just know that I can not live in a world in which God did not exist. My life would be so meaningless and empty. If you can live in that world, well power to you. Why do you have to ruin it for the rest of us who need Him?
Thought experiment: Does this mean that if—by whatever evidence—you were to conclude tomorrow that there is no God, you would end your life? Or that you would insist on being miserable for the rest of your life? Or are you just saying that you cannot now imagine what might take the place of your belief in God, and the religious expression constructed around that belief?
God does not give meaning to our existence—belief in God, for those who come to that conclusion, is one of articles out of which we compose meanings for our lives. The same for conclusions about the nature of such a God drawn from such things as scriptures, life experiences, etc. The same for the universe itself.
Meaning is not given: what is given are the facts of our existence (or what we think are the facts) and their relationships, patterns. From which, we compose meaning based on our understanding and conclusions about those facts. Sometimes those facts include what others have told us about the world—including the existence of God—which we must also evaluate for ourselves. Meaning/understanding is a hermeneutical outcome from conscious interaction with the world we inhabit. When it comes to meaning/understanding, you always bring yourself—your predispositions, experiences, mental capacities, willingness to question and search, etc.—to the table.
God or no God, as long as your conscious existence remains, that always gives you the possibility of weaving new and expanded meanings for your life. As long as you are here in the world of which you are, there is no emptiness—transience, yes. When someone says their life is empty, they are either: (1) not paying attention; (2) in the thrall of emotional suffering, perhaps from some tragedy (we nearly all experience such times); or (3) suffering from deluded thinking. These are not to be criticized, but offered whatever may be appropriate help, insight and healing.
___________________________________________
As far as your particular religious faith goes: May it be for you and others a path of blessing.
08 Mar 07
Originally posted by vistesdI like number 1!
When someone says their life is empty, they are either: (1) not paying attention; (2) in the thrall of emotional suffering, perhaps from some tragedy (we nearly all experience such times); or (3) suffering from deluded thinking.
Tell you what, vistesd, I'll swap you my "totality without edge" for your "not paying attention"!!!
😀
08 Mar 07
Originally posted by sonhouseAs I already mentioned there are many religious leaders who are using God to make a lot of money out of people.
The reason for that is you have been TAUGHT that, it did not come from a god, it came from people who WANT you to be dependent on their dogma, thus making their power base larger. They care nothing about you personally, I am speaking of the upper ranks of whatever religion you are trapped in.
There are a lot of religious ideas out there that makes you so called intellectual types cringe. Believe me most of it makes me cringe as well. Adam and Eve, Heaven and Hell, Satan, Sin and Salvation, Father and Son, these I believe have been grossly misunderstood.
I am talking about a God that teaches us to break the boundaries of our SELF, and view the entire mankind as a part of our selves, a God that teaches us to grow out of our selfish, self centered little beings to see the entire humanity as one body with each of us as its cells. What happens when a cell decides to grow and multiply without regard to the rest of the body? CANCER!
You may deny this, but we all need something (a crutch) to make our lives worthwhile. Yours maybe money, power, education, knowledge, sex, family.... Mine happens to be God.
08 Mar 07
1 edit
Originally posted by VarqaYou may deny this, but we all need something (a crutch) to make our lives worthwhile.
As I already mentioned there are many religious leaders who are using God to make a lot of money out of people.
There are a lot of religious ideas out there that makes you so called intellectual types cringe. Believe me most of it makes me cringe as well. Adam and Eve, Heaven and Hell, Satan, Sin and Salvation, Father and Son, these I believe have been gros ...[text shortened]... thwhile. Yours maybe money, power, education, knowledge, sex, family.... Mine happens to be God.
But this says nothing more that that we exist in embodied form with conscious, thinking, emoting minds. That we do not exist any other way.
I wouldn’t call the “material” (including concepts) that we use to compose meaningful or worthwhile lives “crutches.” A crutch is something you depend on when you’re wounded; just as a map is something you use to find your way to someplace you haven’t been. When you’re well, you do not cling to the crutch; when you arrive at your destination, you fold away the map and see where you are.
If I were to suggest that you use the concept of a God (your concept and understanding of that) as part of the material you use to compose your life, would that be accurate? I am not questioning by that your conclusion that such a God exists, any more than I’m questioning that your mind exists. That’s not my point. The point is clutching (since that nicely rhymes with “crutching”...).
As soon as you begin to clutch at your concept of God, as soon as you try to impose that on others (which I have never seen you do, by the way), you start down the path of “idolatry.”
_______________________________
There are no idols
except the ones you need:
that is how you know them—
When you no longer need them,
they fall apart—
Watch out!
if they start to crumble
before you have walked away…
_______________________________
I have no problem with people whose religious expressions are simply part of how they compose meaning in their lives. And Baha’i is certainly a very broad and affirming expression. I am only responding to that “crutch” thing, and the notion that people who are atheists or non-religionists or non-theistic monists (like I am: think Zen or Advaita Vedanta, or the like) cannot compose lives as rich and meaningful as theists—if that is what you imply.
a God that teaches us to grow out of our selfish, self centered little beings
Zen and Vedanta teach the same thing, without a god.
08 Mar 07
Originally posted by vistesdI was not the one who called God a crutch. I simply relented to this definition in order to resolve a pointless argument. I don't see God as a crutch any more than you see the walls around your house as a prison.
[b]You may deny this, but we all need something (a crutch) to make our lives worthwhile.
But this says nothing more that that we exist in embodied form with conscious, thinking, emoting minds. That we do not exist any other way.
I wouldn’t call the “material” (including concepts) that we use to compose meaningful or worthwhile lives “crutches.” ...[text shortened]... selfish, self centered little beings[/b]
Zen and Vedanta teach the same thing, without a god.[/b]
I did not in any way mean that non believers can not live a rich life. I get a lot of internal peace and satisfaction from my beliefs and from communion with God as the all-knowing creator. If you get this satisfaction from Zen, Christianity, or any other way, I believe that is fine.
I am not completely familiar with Zen, other than that it is a way of meditation used in martial arts. Please forgive my ignorance.
08 Mar 07
Originally posted by VarqaI stand corrected on a couple of viewpoints that I thought you were expressing. Your ignorance of Zen needs no forgiveness; I know very little about Baha’i. 🙂
I was not the one who called God a crutch. I simply relented to this definition in order to resolve a pointless argument. I don't see God as a crutch any more than you see the walls around your house as a prison.
I did not in any way mean that non believers can not live a rich life. I get a lot of internal peace and satisfaction from my beliefs and from co ...[text shortened]... n, other than that it is a way of meditation used in martial arts. Please forgive my ignorance.
We’re agreed on the “crutch” thing. With regard to the meaning issue, in terms of the lack thereof without a God, that has been expressed—pretty often—by other theists on here. Hence my reaction. Sorry if I mis-represented what you were saying.
I have nothing against either religion, or its theistic expressions, per se. I do argue against some of the arguments that people make for their views. And they argue against mine. I think the notion of God as a being is untenable—some of my good friends disagree.
08 Mar 07
Originally posted by vistesdIn that case, you can consider me one of your good friends! 🙂
I stand corrected on a couple of viewpoints that I thought you were expressing. Your ignorance of Zen needs no forgiveness; I know very little about Baha’i. 🙂
We’re agreed on the “crutch” thing. With regard to the meaning issue, in terms of the lack thereof without a God, that has been expressed—pretty often—by other theists on here. Hence my ...[text shortened]... ine. I think the notion of God as [b]a being is untenable—some of my good friends disagree.[/b]
09 Mar 07
Hello there everyone. I have read the first two pages but didn't make it through the third. I wanted to add a very special person who believed in God, of course there is controversy here as to his belief, and because of that created some the majority of the framework for all the music today. J. S. Bach. Just so people know I don't personally believe in God. I believe it is easier to at times but alas I do not. So anyone else have people that were believers and benefitted mankind for the positive. On the flip side there was a serial killer that was a woman that is the only woman to be ranked among the highest level serial killers with some men. She was very religious. She did horrid things to her poor children.