07 Feb 12
Small scuttlebutt surrounding the Patriot's decision to allow the Giants to score in the final minutes of Sunday's Super Bowl got me to thinking how similar the situation is to the existence of evil in the world. Namely, how such a thing can be allowed to exist by a perfect God.
Any takers?
07 Feb 12
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI can think of one and apparently he watched the game.
Small scuttlebutt surrounding the Patriot's decision to allow the Giants to score in the final minutes of Sunday's Super Bowl got me to thinking how similar the situation is to the existence of evil in the world. Namely, how such a thing can be allowed to exist by a perfect God.
Any takers?
07 Feb 12
Originally posted by FreakyKBHWhat is a 'perfect God'? A loving God? A just God? An omnipotent God? A desirable God?
Namely, how such a thing can be allowed to exist by a perfect God.
If he is a loving God, then what is love when applied to God? Must he love all living things? Only concious living things? What about inanimate objects, must he love those?
If he is a just God, what does that even mean? What is justice? I see justice as a human concept used to maintain the peace, but that does not really have a universal application and doesn't really work when applied to God.
We all know that omnipotency has its limitations and that knowledge of the future leads to various time paradox's - and may even contradict the laws of physics.
A desirable God would not allow evil to exist unless there is some universal law that means that happiness is not possible without evil.
07 Feb 12
Originally posted by FreakyKBHyes it is similar
Small scuttlebutt surrounding the Patriot's decision to allow the Giants to score in the final minutes of Sunday's Super Bowl got me to thinking how similar the situation is to the existence of evil in the world. Namely, how such a thing can be allowed to exist by a perfect God.
Any takers?
- Joined
- 29 Dec 08
- Moves
- 6788
07 Feb 12
1 edit
Originally posted by SuzianneThis is the kind of thing inquisitive 15-year-olds think about sometimes. Not that I am 15.
You cannot make a choice unless you have at least two options.
The alternative to the existence of evil is a world full of (figurative) robots with no free will.
Imagine a world that is over and done, where there were people who had free will. Is it not possible that, during the entire history of that world, none of them chose to do evil? Was this a world where they were (figurative) robots? I am guessing you'll say, no, they just were well-raised. So, robot-land is not the alternative to a world full of evil, it is the alternative to a world where evil CAN be done but not necessarily where it MUST happen. In fact, any evil act that MUST happen, wouldn't really be a freely chosen act, would it?
Now imagine a world in which God can make certain evil acts impossible to do -- the evil acts that would be the worst possible evil if freely chosen; in fact He even makes them impossible for people to imagine doing, much less, want to do. The people can imagine and choose to do all sorts of lesser acts, some of them pretty bad, and so, they are not moral robots. So this God goes ahead and makes those worst acts impossible. Less evil, but still enough.
So now there is a world where people can choose from a whole list of possible evil acts except the are some that didn't make it to the list.
But now, there are still some evil acts on the "possible" list that are the worst of the possible acts. God could also take them off the list and leave plenty of evil acts. So He does this.
You see where this is headed. The list of evil acts that are possible, eventually gets down to where the worst one is calling your sister a stupid-head. (Not that I would ever do THAT.)
But of course God made this world just right according to His plans for us.
So the amount of evil we can do must be just right. We are in a Goldilocks world, morally speaking.
Enough said. Thank you for listening.
Cheers.
07 Feb 12
I don't think you're post makes sense JS. People have free will. That means nothing is off the table. Hitler can incite an entire country to exterminate members of a religious minority. Albert Fish can murder and eat children. People can also make wonderful choices, like Mother Theresa and Gandhi.
07 Feb 12
Originally posted by SuzianneDon't Christians believe that they will eventually go to heaven and never sin again once they're there?
You cannot make a choice unless you have at least two options.
The alternative to the existence of evil is a world full of (figurative) robots with no free will.
Do the people in heaven have free will?
If no, then they spend eternity as robots.
If yes, then it is possible to have free will and never sin.
07 Feb 12
Originally posted by JS357Alternatively, God could have created humans with a more beneficent character - such that they would naturally choose evil much less of the time, or not at all.
This is the kind of thing inquisitive 15-year-olds think about sometimes. Not that I am 15.
Imagine a world that is over and done, where there were people who had free will. Is it not possible that, during the entire history of that world, none of them chose to do evil? Was this a world where they were (figurative) robots? I am guessing you'll say, no, they ...[text shortened]... n a Goldilocks world, morally speaking.
Enough said. Thank you for listening.
Cheers.
07 Feb 12
Originally posted by FreakyKBHSuch a thing as evil can be allowed to exist by a perfect God if this evil were necessary for some greater good to obtain. So, now you just need to show that it is plausible that all the evil that does exist is as such. Good luck with that....
Small scuttlebutt surrounding the Patriot's decision to allow the Giants to score in the final minutes of Sunday's Super Bowl got me to thinking how similar the situation is to the existence of evil in the world. Namely, how such a thing can be allowed to exist by a perfect God.
Any takers?
- Joined
- 31 May 06
- Moves
- 1795
07 Feb 12
Originally posted by SuzianneI would like to strongly dispute this.
You cannot make a choice unless you have at least two options.
The alternative to the existence of evil is a world full of (figurative) robots with no free will.
It's like saying you can't have pleasure without pain, but that's blatantly not true.
Pleasure and pain are on a sliding scale with some things being more pleasurable than others and
some things more painful than others.
There are also things in the middle that are neither pleasurable or painful.
Thus there is a large range of experience, ranging from screaming torture... to screaming orgasm, and
losing the bottom half with the pain in it doesn't diminish the top half.
A world without evil does not require the world to be filled with automatons with no free will.
And if you want to claim that it is impossible for evil to be eradicated (by a being with gods powers)
without removing free will then you are going to have to prove it and not simply state it.
08 Feb 12
1 edit
Originally posted by Suzianneyou mean like the eternal heaven christians are destined for?
You cannot make a choice unless you have at least two options.
The alternative to the existence of evil is a world full of (figurative) robots with no free will.
edit:[looks like swissgambit already covered this angle.]
- Joined
- 29 Dec 08
- Moves
- 6788
08 Feb 12
Originally posted by dryhumpThat's because the most evil act you can think of is something someone could do. Like I said, God could have made it impossible for us to even imagine the most evil acts, at the same time as he made them ones that were impossible to do. Like, it is impossible (I think) for mortal beings like us to just will people to light on fire. God could have decide that is too evil.
I don't think you're post makes sense JS. People have free will. That means nothing is off the table. Hitler can incite an entire country to exterminate members of a religious minority. Albert Fish can murder and eat children. People can also make wonderful choices, like Mother Theresa and Gandhi.
Maybe that example makes more sense of it?
08 Feb 12
Originally posted by SuzianneWhat would be so wrong with being a robot that always chooses the right thing to do? Why do you believe that choosing the evil thing occasionally (or in the case of humans, seemingly more often than not) is 'good'?
The alternative to the existence of evil is a world full of (figurative) robots with no free will.
Or rather why is it so important to have a choice?
Does God have a choice? Does he have free will? Does he do evil occasionally or is he a robot?
08 Feb 12
Of course, as everyone knows, but has not yet been mentioned in this thread, the vast majority of evil is not initiated by humans. Nature kills more people than humans do. Nature causes more suffering than humans do. Its interesting that insurance companies call natural disasters "acts of God" not "acts of the Devil".