Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeIt is glossed over because it does not fit in with their church doctrine and very few have the gumption to either stand up and walk away from this false doctrine or change it. Most do like sonship and swallow the nonsense and further attempt to indoctrinate others.
"There are some who are neither righteous nor wicked and these the left in the grave."
It's a little peculiar that some Christians would prefer to gloss over such a group of people, especially as they comprise the majority.
And you are right in that the bulk of people fall into this neutral category
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Originally posted by @rajk999
- People die and their bodies go to the grave while their life force also referred to as the soul goes back to God;
In the lesson of Luke 16:19-31 Lazarus died and went to "Abraham's bosom". That surely was going to God.
Would you say that the rich man went back to God too?
"And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham from afar and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he called out and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in torment in this flame." (vs.23,24)
Does the teaching portray the life force of the rich man going back to God?
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- At some point in the end, God performs eternal judgment, and this is referred to as eternal because the decisions made here are never going to be reversed.
Yes. I can see that at some point.
And at that point, whenever it is, the names of men not written in the book of life - what happens to them?
At some point -
"And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)
God therefore does warn us of a terminal point. Men appear fixed if we take Revelation 22:11 to mean things are forever fixed.
"Let him who does unrighteousness do unrighteousness still; and let him who is filthy be filthy still; and let him who is righteous do righteousness still; and let him who is holy be holy still." (Rev. 22:11)
The placement of the warning in Revelation 22 might mean this terminal point of fixity you speak of.
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The righteous enter the Kingdom of God and the wicked are cast into the lake of fire
- There are some who are neither righteous nor wicked and these the left in the grave
But you, I think, were speaking of that terminal point of no further remedy.
In Revelation 20:14 death and Hades (the holding place of the dead) themselves are thrown into the lake of fire.
"And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. (v.14)
And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (v.15)
No matter how far we push this back in time or ages the sense of warning and dread is the same. At some point ALL the books are closed and the last judgment takes place.
Better leave it alone.
- The lake of fire destroys permanently all the wicked humans both body and soul, This is their eternal punishment because it will never be reversed and there is no hope of life again
- The lake of fire torments for eternity 3 entities only listed in Revelation.
What about the entities beyond three mentioned in Revelation 14:11 ?
Are you suggesting that only refers to TWO individuals?
" ... If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
He also shall drink of the wine of the fury of God, which is mixed undiluted in the cup of is wrath, and he shall be tormented in fire and brinestone before the holy angels and before the Lamb,
And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (See Rev. 14:9-11)
Are you teaching that that will only be two people?
Better leave it alone.
This is basically what the bible says. Truth requires no long analysis or explanation. Its simple and it is fair. Nobody has to sit and watch others being tormented for eternity.
The point you miss is that those of whom it says their tormenting is forever and ever without rest refers:
1.) Most probably MORE than just two persons.
2.) Have no rest day or night being punished forever.
How could the final Antichrist only have two people following him and worshipping Satan?
The polarization upon the earth will get so bad that minions will follow Satan and his Antichrist and the false prophet.
"And all those dwelling on the earth will worship him [Antichrist], every one whose name is not written in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world." (Rev. 13:8)
Does that sound like only two people?
" ... And the whole earth marveled after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast, saying, Who is like the beast? And who can make war with him? " (See Rev. 13:3b-4)
Your, only TWO human beings will be tormented forever may be false comfort, but it doesn't stand up to the Bible's words.
Better to accept the dread and TURN, TURN in your heart to Jesus Christ for the assurance of eternal redemption and the grace to live in union with Him.
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@sonship
As you are “burdened” (burdened by what one wonders) only to discuss Leviticus in the Leviticus thread, I thought I would repost this in here, where presumably you feel less incumbered by your Levitical luggage.
.......................................................................................................
On the mater of your claiming people will be burned alive in hell:
You acknowledge the symbolism of Leviticus and subsequently stated:
“I recognize the symbolism of passages concerning eternal punishment”
I am asking if you have therefore changed your position on the burning of people in hell?
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Originally posted by @divegeesterDivegester,
@sonship
As you are “burdened” (burdened by what one wonders) only to discuss Leviticus in the Leviticus thread, I thought I would repost this in here, where presumably you feel less incumbered by your Levitical luggage.
.......................................................................................................
On the mater of your c ...[text shortened]... /b]
I am asking if you have therefore changed your position on the burning of people in hell?
Think of "burden" like Paul's sense of responsibility pressing on him for the churches he was taking care of. (2 Cor. 11:28) [/b]. I said "LIKE" ... that - "similar" in other words.
"And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)
Is there anything about that sentence which is comforting knowing what we were told already?
Move the symbolism arrow up or down the symbolism scale. The net effect remains that no one should wish to go to that place or "place". Through the Lamb's book of life it should be avoided at all costs.
I don't know the heart beat rate of those who are there.
I don't know how loud the moans.
I don't know number of those there.
I don't know the temperature.
I don't know the science of the lake of fire.
I don't know the physiology of its victims.
There is no amount of symbolism which removes for me the dread of such a fate.
The Scripture is explicit about the suffering of the Devil, the Antichrist, the false prophet in "the lake of fire".
Do I know that the same intensity of suffering applies to all there as applies to the Devil, the Antichrist, and the False prophet, and most certainly the followers of the Antichrist in Revelation 14 ? I don't know.
My opinion is that it is conveyed to us so that we would put no confidence in the lake of fire being in ANY way a place or "place" to be. There is no ground given in the Bible for hope that maybe one's experience will not be as bad as the Devil, Antichrist, or the false prophet in that "lake of fire," even if that was the case.
"There suffering will be forever and ever. But maybe mine will only be temporary. They go there and suffer. But maybe I will go there and it means non-existence."
There is little, very thin, to no thin ice, to walk on these kinds of assumptions. Rather there is the hope that one's name is recorded in the Lamb's book of life through trusting in Christ the Lamb of God once and for all.
Do you believe that that Man Who died on the cross was God ?
Originally posted by @sonshipThis is a gimmick that you have used before.
I don't know the heart beat rate of those who are there.
I don't know how loud the moans.
I don't know number of those there.
I don't know the temperature.
I don't know the science of the lake of fire.
I don't know the physiology of its victims.
Where is your moral justification for burning non-Christians for their of lack of belief?
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Originally posted by @divegeester
I am asking if you have therefore changed your position on the burning of people in hell?
No, as long as have been arguing about this (ad naseum) I have left room for knowing and prophesying "in part" as the bible says we believers do.
You want to take the partial knowledge and press this to prove that the prophetic speaking is wrong.
" Because you are not 100% consistent in how you speak of this lake of fire, this proves no such eternal punishment exists."
It sounds like you are trying more to convince yourself than me.
The Bible speaks of Jesus sitting in heaven. I don't know about gravity in heaven. Why should there be gravity in a place like heaven which may not be on some planet?
I don't know. I know in part though. And because I don't know the science of it is no reason for me to teach that Jesus is not enthroned in heaven.
I think it is conveyed that there is eternal suffering to those who will not be extricated by Christ from Satan's rebellion.
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Originally posted by @sonshipSorry but was that a ‘yes you have changed your view that non Christians will burn alive in hell’, or a ‘no you haven’t changed your view’?
Divegester,
Think of "burden" like Paul's sense of responsibility pressing on him for the churches he was taking care of. (2 Cor. 11:28) . I said "LIKE" ... that - "similar" in other words.
"And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)
Is there [i] ...[text shortened]... Lamb of God once and for all.
Do you believe that that Man Who died on the cross was God ?[/b]
Subsequently, which passages are you referrimg to when you state: “I recognize the symbolism of passages concerning eternal punishment”, and what does that mean in terms of your construct of hell will Jesus overseeing the eternal burning?
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Originally posted by @fmfThe moral justification is briefly reviewed in Revelation 20:12,13, and verse 15.
This is a gimmick that you have used before.
Where is your moral justification for burning non-Christians for their of lack of belief?
Ie.
"standing before the throne ..."
Christ is the ultimate authority and Judge.
God is the ultimate decider and Judge.
Its not you or me.
"and scrolls were opened ... and the dead were judges by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works."
God has an infallible record,
God also has infallible knowledge of all circumstances.
In that day probably where some deemed themselves innocent, they will discover their guilt.
Conversely where some have felt condemned they may discover that God knew better.
It hasn't happened yet.
"and another scroll was opened, which is the book of life."
The presence or absence of the name in the book of life determines eternal destiny. Since it is the Lamb's book of life it must be those Justified by the Lamb of God - the Son Christ.
The Lamb of God is God become a man who died for us that we would be justified.
Your philosophy is "There may be no God. And no need to be forgiven or justified to be reconciled to God."
The Bible doesn't teach that it is inconsequential to transgress the law of God. And it is not ambiguous about the existence of God. And it portrays God as going as far as He did that we be saved from ourselves if we fall into Satan's revolt.
Now a question to you:
You have been trying to point out weaknesses with my Christian belief for years. Name the top inconsistency which gives you comfort that the Bible is not telling the truth.
1.) I am not a good person?
2.) I am not the best debater?
3.) I can't answer some of your questions?
4.) I lost my temper a couple of times?
5.) You got ignored a few times like "dodged".
Which one of these bloopers causes you to dismiss the life and words of Jesus Christ as not worth any of your time to contemplate?
Originally posted by @sonshipYou have described a strand of supernatural gangsterism that you just so happen to believe in and you have made a set of superstitious assertions in service of it and which are credible only to your fellow believers. I am interested in a moral argument that might be persuasive and/or represent a credible deterrent to the non-believers you believe should be burned.
1.) I am not a good person?
2.) I am not the best debater?
3.) I can't answer some of your questions?
4.) I lost my temper a couple of times?
5.) You got ignored a few times like "dodged".
Originally posted by @dj2beckerYou asked me what I thought of this assertion - in terms of it supposedly being a moral argument - before, several times, and I answered. Why are you asking me again?
Which part of 'the creator of life gets to decide its fate' don't you get?
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Originally posted by @fmfWhat is your better way to live ?
You have described a strand of supernatural gangsterism that you just so happen to believe in and you have made a set of superstitious assertions in service of it and which are credible only to your fellow believers. I am interested in a moral argument that might be persuasive and/or represent a credible deterrent to the non-believers you believe should be burned.
Why not ignore me and those so-called gullible people like me, and concentrate on posting on Spirituality your superior and more credible spiritual beliefs and way to live?
Who'se to interfere?
Tell us what you have which is better than Jesus Christ.